AHC/WI: swap the development paths of Europe and China

Eurofed

Banned
The main idea of this scenario is that the OTL Common Era evolutionary paths of western Eurasia and eastern Asia are swapped, broadly speaking, as much as it may be plausible (assuming that geographical determinism is a totally fallacious and wrong concept).

Some mandatory and optional events to define the scenario:

- After the collapse of the Han Dynasty, Imperial China permanently breaks down into several states, none ever getting lasting size or population greater than Japan, Korea, or Vietnam, that develop their own distinct culture and separate national consciousness, and in most cases, their own language.

- A loose supranational cultural identity, based on Chinese influence (the "Sinosphere"), nonetheless evolves that by modern times comes to encompass all of East Asia, Southeast Asia, and OTL Russian Far East.

- Classical Imperial Rome manages to purge itself of the domestic flaws that IOTL caused its fall (largely by the means described here) and evolves into a united civilization-polity with a very strong national consciousness, cultural identity, and Latin-Greek linguistic homogeneity that always manages to pull itself back to political unity despite possible occasional periods of political disunity. Occasional inroads of barbarians, if they ever happen, are invariably and efficiently absorbed within the Roman civilization-polity. Its lasting borders come to include all of continental Europe (minus Scandinavia), North Africa, Nubia, Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia, and Arabia. Eastern borders at the very least reach the Vistula-Dniester line and the Zagros Mountains in classical times, by modern times they may remain as such or be expanded to the Neman-Western Bug-Southern Bug line. To mark the classical eastern border of Rome, a massive line of fortifications exists that stretches from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea (the "Great Wall of Europe").

- Rome fails to conquer and assimilate Britain (optional) and Persia. Those areas receive some Roman cultural influence and may be conquered or vassallized for a while, but never long and well enough to allow their lasting assimilation in the Roman polity. They keep/develop their own distinct culture and national consciousess, in the case of independent Britain a mix of Celtic, Norse-Germanic, and Roman elements.

- Rome gives up the conquest and assimilation of Scandinavia (due to perceived poor value) and of Sarmatia (due to perceived poor defensibility). Both areas receive some Roman cultural influence but develop their own distinct culture and national consciousess, Scandinavia mostly Norse-Germanic with some Roman elements, Rus a mix of Slavic, Norse-Germanic, and Roman elements.

- Islam is completely butterflied out due to Roman assimilation of Arabia, Christianity is snuffed out in western Eurasia (much like Buddhism was in India). The mainstream religion of Rome becomes a syncretist fusion of Greco-Roman, Celtic, Germanic, Egyptian, and Levant polytheist Pagan faiths with strong monist elements, very akin to Hinduism ("Romanism"). Persia remains Zoroastrian. Independent Britain, Scandinavia, and Rus evolve their own "national" Pagan religions, broadly similar but distinct from Romanism. Buddhism spreads to western Eurasia and becomes its secondary mainstream religion, which exists alongside Romanism or the local equivalent in a complementary, non-competitive relationship similar to the one that exists IOTL between Buddhism and Shinto or Chinese folk religion.

- (optional) Christianity spreads to eastern Asia (in a way similar to the OTL diffusion of Nestorian Christianity to China) and in due time displaces and replaces Buddhism, Shinto, and Chinese folk religion as the mainstream faith (not necessarily as a single confession) of East Asia and Southeast Asia.

- Rome and the Sinosphere powers always remain at least as culturally and technologically dynamic as OTL China and OTL Europe, respectively. Both undergo colonial expansion during the Early Modern period (Sinosphere akin to OTL Europe, Rome akin to an OTL early Ming China that never suffers a swing to isolationism, with the inevitable geopolitical differences).

- The Sinosphere develops industrialization first, but Rome embraces it fast and well enough to prevent its own colonization by foreign powers.

- By modern times, the Sinosphere is at least powerful and wealthy enough as OTL Europe, Rome as OTL China.

A note: the author of the scenario is very well aware, due to past discussions, that it, or some key elements of it, may turn out rather controversial with, and disliked by, certain board elements, for various reasons. I make a plead for everybody to take part in the discussion only if you are willing and able to make a constructive contribution and helpful suggestions about the concept of western Eurasia and eastern Asia evolving this way. If you honestly deem the scenario to be too implausible or distasteful to fulfill and have nothing else to say on the subject apart from naysaying, please stay away from the thread, and assume that your naysaying arguments, due to past lenghty discussions on similar subjects, are already known, noted, and overruled.
 
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I wonder how you can discuss how such a scenario could work if naysaying is ruled out as threadcrapping.

That sounds more like a "We're not interested in dealing with how such a thing would meet any issues that don't fit our fixed notions." than a good way to get constructive suggestions for how a more united "Rome" and a less united China would work.

A question I'd like to see an answer to by those who are ruling out "geographic determinism": How are you dealing with the issues of geography and its effects on the states in question in the first place?
 
Assuming geography doesn't have too much to do with its origins, it would ultimately play a big role in how it grew. I could easily imagine the Sinosphere expanding through Indonesia and possibly into the Micronesian/Malenesian islands easily by 1000 AD (OTL date) akin to the Norse expansion that settled the Faeroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland and even Vinland. The Sinosphere, with those cultural identities, as well, would likely be more expansionistic, so it could easily spread through these areas.
 
Actually, South East Asia could be an Eastern Europe Analogue while the North East Asia could be a Western European Analogue, this is what I was thinking..
 
Actually, South East Asia could be an Eastern Europe Analogue while the North East Asia could be a Western European Analogue, this is what I was thinking..

Interesting prospect. Would Korean and Japanese cultures be major players like OTL France-Spain-Germany-UK then? Manchurians too?
 
I wonder how you can discuss how such a scenario could work if naysaying is ruled out as threadcrapping.

That sounds more like a "We're not interested in dealing with how such a thing would meet any issues that don't fit our fixed notions." than a good way to get constructive suggestions for how a more united "Rome" and a less united China would work.

A question I'd like to see an answer to by those who are ruling out "geographic determinism": How are you dealing with the issues of geography and its effects on the states in question in the first place?

One could, perhaps, call this strategy/style of discussion the Frisian Pedagogy. :D
 
Actually, South East Asia could be an Eastern Europe Analogue while the North East Asia could be a Western European Analogue, this is what I was thinking..

The East/West split in Europe arose largely out of the Greek/Latin split of Imperial Rome (which arguably originated when Rome was founded as a distinct polity from Greece), and was finally cemented in the Great Schism of 1054. With a POD after the fall of the Han it's hard to see where the North/South split in the "Sinosphere" comes from.
 

Eurofed

Banned
The East/West split in Europe arose largely out of the Greek/Latin split of Imperial Rome (which arguably originated when Rome was founded as a distinct polity from Greece), and was finally cemented in the Great Schism of 1054. With a POD after the fall of the Han it's hard to see where the North/South split in the "Sinosphere" comes from.

IOTL Periods of Chinese disunity showed a trend towards a North/South division well after the Han. One may expect the split to intensify and get entrenched after permanent fragmentation. .
 
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Well, there was recent discussion in a thread I started on non-western views of the Exotic West, where there was some talk by Thande about how China kinda viewed Rome as a counterweight on the opposite side of Asia. There was the possibility raised that when it collapsed, it cemented the idea that China was superior and led to the Middle Kingdom mentality, even though in the long run Europe was the beneficiary. Perhaps a similar situation could arise here, though obviously reversed. Could Rome be viewed as the center of everything, the Universal Constant among all the states of the world?
 
Periods of Chinese disunity showed a trend towards North/South divisions well after the Han.

But since the founding of Rome as a distinct polity the seeds were already planted for an East/West division in language, culture, and eventually the church. The Greeks respected the Romans as civilized, and vice versa.

By contrast there was never a distinct "southern China" polity which perceived and was perceived by the Central Plains people to be equally civilized. Yes, the Wuyue and Minyue people had sophisticated culture, but none of them saw themselves as part of a "Yue" civlization. So I think if China did permanently split after the Han each component state would merely build their own identity and not bother to perceive themselves as part of a "North" or "South" civilization.


Well, there was recent discussion in a thread I started on non-western views of the Exotic West, where there was some talk by Thande about how China kinda viewed Rome as a counterweight on the opposite side of Asia. There was the possibility raised that when it collapsed, it cemented the idea that China was superior and led to the Middle Kingdom mentality, even though in the long run Europe was the beneficiary. Perhaps a similar situation could arise here, though obviously reversed. Could Rome be viewed as the center of everything, the Universal Constant among all the states of the world?
Not possible. The Han Dynasty collapsed in 220 CE when the Roman Empire was still going strong. Stability under one empire didn't return until the Tang until the early 7th century, and Chinese knowledge of "Great Qin" was sketchy at best. And besides, Europeans have not been any less self-centric than the "Middle Kingdom" mentality described.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
So I think if China did permanently split after the Han each component state would merely build their own identity and not bother to perceive themselves as part of a "North" or "South" civilization.

Oh, no doubt on that.

Well, there was recent discussion in a thread I started on non-western views of the Exotic West, where there was some talk by Thande about how China kinda viewed Rome as a counterweight on the opposite side of Asia. There was the possibility raised that when it collapsed, it cemented the idea that China was superior and led to the Middle Kingdom mentality, even though in the long run Europe was the beneficiary. Perhaps a similar situation could arise here, though obviously reversed. Could Rome be viewed as the center of everything, the Universal Constant among all the states of the world?


An interesting and quite plausible point. :D It however also depends on how Persia, India, and Rus are perceived by Rome.
 
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Oh, no doubt on that.

Until quite recently, the leaders of Catholic Europe were afraid of upsetting the Pope in Rome (or Avignon), because they saw themselves as part of the Catholic world in addition to leaders of their nations. The leaders of Orthodox Europe were afraid of upsetting the Patriarchs in their lands and the Patriarch in Constantinople, because they held allegiance to something other than their home nations.

This will not exist in the "Sinosphere". The Kings of, say, Minyue and Nanyue will not see themselves as fellow "Southerners" the same way the Kings of Spain and France saw themselves as fellow Catholics who were subordinate to Rome.
 
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