AHC: Have South Africa adopt a political system similar to Juche in North Korea, or in general have South Africa become a closed state. Closed state as in depriving it's inhabitants the freedom of movement, without specific state approval.

WI: What if South Africa had a political doctrine/system similar to North Korean Juche/or a closed state in general?
 
AHC: Have South Africa adopt a political system similar to Juche in North Korea, or in general have South Africa become a closed state. Closed state as in depriving it's inhabitants the freedom of movement, without specific state approval.

WI: What if South Africa had a political doctrine/system similar to North Korean Juche/or a closed state in general?
Are you referring to South Africa during apartheid or after apartheid?
 
it won't happen during apartheid.The white population won't stand for it if it means a decline in their standard of living.
 
Im talking about South Africa sometime after 1900, so both apartheid or after apartheid is acceptable.

If during apartheid, then you'd see widespread revolts from the black population. Nelson Mandela would probably have been executed under such a system and the government would have to put down revolts viciously, but that would end up making them look even worse in the international community. NATO intervention would be on the table, due to potential crimes against humanity and security threats in the region. Like @Noscoper said, even the white population wouldn't stand for it, as their way of life would be affected as well. If after apartheid, then the government is more likely to get away with it. The international community would likely view this with distaste, but they'd be unlikely to take action against it. It might even inspire Robert Mugabe to impose something similar in Zimbabwe.
 
If after apartheid, then the government is more likely to get away with it. The international community would likely view this with distaste, but they'd be unlikely to take action against it. It might even inspire Robert Mugabe to impose something similar in Zimbabwe.
Even if its a post apartheid government. I'm not sure if they would be able to get away with given South Africa is far more diverse then North Korea ever was. You also need an enemy which with a post apartheid government is likely to be whites. You could and would likely see widespread revolts from both the white and portions of the black population.
 
Then the Namib Desert becomes the world's largest death camp, millions whom oppose the state forced to march to their deaths.

If the healthcare system is as notoriously bad as North Korea's, HIV would somehow get even worse, like Black Death levels of pandemic.

For the state to get money they'd force people en masse into the mines, working til they die, and then sell it to foreign powers willing to make illegal deals. They'd hunt elephants and rhinos to near extinction and sell the parts to the Chinese.

They probably keep the nukes and might build more. Not so hard when you have all that uranium.

Lesotho and Swaziland will almost certainly be invaded and who will stand up for such little countries?
 
it won't happen during apartheid.The white population won't stand for it if it means a decline in their standard of living.
Maybe it can be implemented in a way that the population does not realise what has happened before it is to late? A civil war scenario?
 
Then the Namib Desert becomes the world's largest death camp, millions whom oppose the state forced to march to their deaths.

If the healthcare system is as notoriously bad as North Korea's, HIV would somehow get even worse, like Black Death levels of pandemic.

For the state to get money they'd force people en masse into the mines, working til they die, and then sell it to foreign powers willing to make illegal deals. They'd hunt elephants and rhinos to near extinction and sell the parts to the Chinese.

They probably keep the nukes and might build more. Not so hard when you have all that uranium.

Lesotho and Swaziland will almost certainly be invaded and who will stand up for such little countries?

Unlikely, seeing as the Namib is in Namibia, with a tiny strip in SA. The Kalahari or Karoo are more likely to be the sight of concentration camps.
 
This is pretty hard to do, but an attempt was made to describe one in 1946 (I think). Arthur Keppel-Jones, a historian, wrote an FH novel (now AH) called When Smuts Goes describing a National Party win in 1953 (rather than 1948). The National Party splits (if I recall correctly) with an even more hardline Afrikaner Nationalist party emerging, called something like the the National Christian Republican Party. Read the book a while ago and I'm not at home to check the exact wording. These guys are even more totalitarian than the Nats in OTL and there is an exodus of English-speaking whites and moderate Afrikaners with non-whites having even less rights than in OTL. Eventually there is an uprising, which leads to a black government but the country continues to decay and by 2010 (the book is 'written' in 2015) South Africa is basically a failed state.
 
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Juche would be alien to the mindset of Afrikaners or other white South Africans. It's a borderline religious doctrine which demands absolute faith in the "Dear Leader" who is incorruptible and can't be criticised--that contradicts Christian religious doctrine. It also requires the whole nation to be united behind the idea of self-reliance, and if these are anything like the 20th century white South Africans we know, that definition excludes the majority of the population.

I could see a black South African version of Juche though, where we'd have a country similar to Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe always had a certain affinity toward North Korea, including the notorious 5th Brigade which killed thousands of Ndebele people who were perceived to be supporting his political opponents. A "Juche South Africa" (call it "Azania" perhaps) might emerge if Apartheid rule were even more brutal, and in response spawned a successful uprising which replaced it with a black South African government which ended up decaying into a dictatorship which was just as brutal but for different reasons. It would be nominally pan-Africanist in outlook, but probably would be dominated by a particular ethnic group (perhaps the Xhosa or Zulu?). White South Africans likely wouldn't be the only group targetted with violence by the state. This would probably result in a civil war which would most likely lead to the breakup of South Africa and confine the Juche-esque regime to one particular region, although in a worst case scenario the Juche-esque regime would win the civil war and secure control over all of South Africa.

Dealing with white South Africans would be a problem, since that could lead to serious repercussions internationally. They'd perhaps sign treaties with Australia, the UK, the Netherlands, or the US to allow for easy emigration of whites, after they seized all white-owned land and property. Those whites who stayed (i.e. poor Afrikaners) would be in for a lot of challenges--they would be very politically unreliable and likely thrown into prison camps. The ethnic cleansing of white South Africans would likely be a very infamous event in the history of the regime, as it would likely draw international attention.

Unlike Zimbabwe, South Africa is much wealthier in terms of resources (even wealthier than North Korea!), and most importantly, has plenty of ports. Although the conditions of Juche (which is very East Asian/Confucian in terms of its philosophy) are hard to replicate even for a black South African government, since South Africa is very ethnically divided compared to the ethnically homogenous North Korea. As noted, the South African desert is a good place for kwalliso-style camps. Political enemies (which may include entire ethnic groups) or other people disfavoured by the state would be sent here, where many would be required to mine diamonds or other resources until they died.
 
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Namibia was a mandate of South Africa though, so it's still possible

Also was there not some who wanted to fully annex Namibia into South Africa.

Depends when this hypothetical SA goes juche.

After 1989 Namibia is already independent.

Just thinking that I think it would be hard for SA to seal its borders, doubly so if has annexed Namibia. Let's assume this mad juche SA annexes Lesotho and Swaziland, that still leaves it with borders (with an independent Namibia) four countries - Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, and Botswana. If Namibia is annexed it has borders with five countries - Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Angola and Zambia. And then there is also a very long coastline. Very hard to seal a country in those conditions.
 
Juche would be alien to the mindset of Afrikaners or other white South Africans. It's a borderline religious doctrine which demands absolute faith in the "Dear Leader" who is incorruptible and can't be criticised--that contradicts Christian religious doctrine. It also requires the whole nation to be united behind the idea of self-reliance, and if these are anything like the 20th century white South Africans we know, that definition excludes the majority of the population.

That's a good point, and, Afrikaners are actually pretty keen on democracy (as long as it applies to them). English-speakers will also have the British and Cape liberal traditions which would, to a degree, be a bulwark against totalitarianism (especially in a white-run state).

In a situation where Juche-SA is post-apartheid it is likely there would be ethnic conflicts, as well as racial conflicts. Perhaps Xhosas would dominate this hypothetical state (as they dominated the initial period of post-apartheid SA politics). However, if there is an exodus and ethnic cleansing of whites (Indians may also well be targeted, as well as coloured people) ethnic cleavages will arise, especially if, for example, Sothos or Zulus are being oppressed by Xhosas. I think a juche-type state can probably only work in an ethnically homogenous state like North Korea. That said, it is not impossible for South Africa to be governed by a regime that is even more totalitarian than the Nats. No collapse of the Soviet Union and an eventual military victory for the ANC could well result in that. Although the ANC is pretty much a bog standard social democracy party, with some African nationalist leanings, prior to its unbanning there were influential Marxist elements, who were very suspicious of liberal or parliamentary democracy.
 
Depends when this hypothetical SA goes juche.

After 1989 Namibia is already independent.

Just thinking that I think it would be hard for SA to seal its borders, doubly so if has annexed Namibia. Let's assume this mad juche SA annexes Lesotho and Swaziland, that still leaves it with borders (with an independent Namibia) four countries - Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, and Botswana. If Namibia is annexed it has borders with five countries - Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Angola and Zambia. And then there is also a very long coastline. Very hard to seal a country in those conditions.
Would probably be easier to seal of/ controll the borders if South Africa annexed Namibia, Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland/eSwatini. Lesotho becouse it is in the middle of South Africa. Swaziland because it will make the border with other countries smaller. Botswana and Namibia because that will push the borders to natural borders like deserts.
 
Would probably be easier to seal of/ controll the borders if South Africa annexed Namibia, Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland/eSwatini. Lesotho becouse it is in the middle of South Africa. Swaziland because it will make the border with other countries smaller. Botswana and Namibia because that will push the borders to natural borders like deserts.

Annexing any of those countries is pretty hard though. Namibia was a South African mandate and the international community didn't allow it to be formally incorporated into SA. I think any attempt to annex especially Botswana would be met with international condemnation and perhaps even force.
 
That's a good point, and, Afrikaners are actually pretty keen on democracy (as long as it applies to them). English-speakers will also have the British and Cape liberal traditions which would, to a degree, be a bulwark against totalitarianism (especially in a white-run state).
One of the major charateristics of a closed state is that the freedom of movement is restricted, especially towards the world beyond the state. Would White South Africans accept that? Also censorship of especially foreign but also domestic propaganda.
In a situation where Juche-SA is post-apartheid it is likely there would be ethnic conflicts, as well as racial conflicts. Perhaps Xhosas would dominate this hypothetical state (as they dominated the initial period of post-apartheid SA politics). However, if there is an exodus and ethnic cleansing of whites (Indians may also well be targeted, as well as coloured people) ethnic cleavages will arise, especially if, for example, Sothos or Zulus are being oppressed by Xhosas.
Are not Coloured people one of the major ethnic groups in South Africa? Relativly numerous and dominant in large swathes of the country. THey should be able to carve out a state for themselfes if they are pushed to far.
I think a juche-type state can probably only work in an ethnically homogenous state like North Korea.
Myanmar, Eritrea and the Soviet Union are all countries that are relativly ethnically heterogenous like South Africa, and these states were or are closed states.
That said, it is not impossible for South Africa to be governed by a regime that is even more totalitarian than the Nats. No collapse of the Soviet Union and an eventual military victory for the ANC could well result in that. Although the ANC is pretty much a bog standard social democracy party, with some African nationalist leanings, prior to its unbanning there were influential Marxist elements, who were very suspicious of liberal or parliamentary democracy.
Many communist states had closed societies, there seem to be something about communism that lends itself towards isolationism.
 
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