AHC/WI: Several European countries convert to Islam peacefully like Indonesia

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Would it have been possible for many medieval European countries to convert to Islam as an internal movement among its ruling class to improve connection to Islamic trade networks?

Kievan Rus seems the most obvious possibility.

Perhaps Lithuania?
 
The issue is that any European monarch who converts to Islam is going to immediately earn the ire of all of their neighbors and claimants to the throne. Indonesia had the luck of geography and religion: Southeast Asian states weren't gonna gang up on Indonesian Muslim states just because they're Muslim, and even if they did they'd have to cross an ocean to fight. In Europe those things aren't there. Plus, apostasy is a BIG no-no in Christianity, far bigger than it is in Hinduism and Buddhism.

I'm not saying its ASB, actually. Maybe a more violent Danelaw leaves most of the island of Britain in Norse Pagan hands, who, as Scandinavia converts to Christianity, converts to Islam to gain access to Andalusian markets and as a kind of "screw you" to the pope and sink anything that tries to take England back, but even then that's kinda cheating.
 
Both Russian and Persian sources suggest that Vladimir (who, after a brief attempt at centralizing Slavic paganism, chose Orthodoxy) considered conversion to Sunni Islam. Once Kievan Rus goes Muslim, there's a good chance at Lithuania becoming Muslim too.
Is this credible though? Isn't that part of the myth in which it's claimed that he chose Christianity because it allowed alcohol?
 
Indonesia did not convert peacefully, it is far more complex. As well, Indonesia as the current conglomeration, never existed in the past. Further, the situation of conversion differed by tribe or region and in some cases the conversion came from certain trade initiatives we can assume. Others from conquest of much of the remaining non Muslim majority, in Java in a method not dissimilar in other regions of Islam.
 
Is this credible though? Isn't that part of the myth in which it's claimed that he chose Christianity because it allowed alcohol?
The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.

Others from conquest of much of the remaining non Muslim majority, in Java in a method not dissimilar in other regions of Islam.
Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.
 

Deleted member 97083

Both Russian and Persian sources suggest that Vladimir (who, after a brief attempt at centralizing Slavic paganism, chose Orthodoxy) considered conversion to Sunni Islam. Once Kievan Rus goes Muslim, there's a good chance at Lithuania becoming Muslim too.
Also, if the Rus converted to Islam earlier than Vladimir's time (conceivable due to the extensive Viking trade network that stretched into the Abbasid Caliphate), it could potentially lead to Muslim Vikings.

Indonesia did not convert peacefully, it is far more complex. As well, Indonesia as the current conglomeration, never existed in the past. Further, the situation of conversion differed by tribe or region and in some cases the conversion came from certain trade initiatives we can assume. Others from conquest of much of the remaining non Muslim majority, in Java in a method not dissimilar in other regions of Islam.
The first footholds were peaceful, though. And Majapahit and Srivijaya existed as Indonesia-like entities.
 
The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.


Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.

We have had this discussion. It would make little sense for what I have been relayed, for the conquest of western Java to have occurred if the Islamization process ended with Demak. Most especially, the conquest of the Sunda, wherein Kelapa was captured and renamed Jakayarta, finished deed. What deed was finished in this case? The answer of course, is jihad; there is nothing wrong with this nor does it break the narrative. It is simply a reality from my perspective.
 
@Achaemenid Rome The concept of peaceful is an incorrect pretense from my perspective. Peaceful designates individual choices free from types of compulsion that can vary from threats, implicit threats or forced upon changes in systems. From my perspective, it is hard to argue that a conversion of some parts of Sumatra or Malaysia were peaceful in nature to the rulers it reached; as these conversions only occurred due to a scenario of compulsion and conquest that occurred between those states of Islam and those states of Hindustan.

To create similar results, one should keep in mind that the situation of the islands of Indonesia differs in the circumstances of Islamization that a theoretical european land would. An example I could muster, would be a scenario wherein, a larger section of Europe is conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate, either Byzantium or the region of Gaul. The effects of this spread east and north to a similar degree to the effect in Hindustan to Indonesia.
 
The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.


Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.
I think to change the religion you would need to change the political situation, you'd have to have the Byzantines be in a very bad spot(the Bulgarians as well, as they were Orthodox) and a stronger Islamic presence, I don't think the Pechenegs were Islamic, or the Khazars. The Volga Bulgarians alone wouldn't be enough at this point I think.

Also, if the Rus converted to Islam earlier than Vladimir's time (conceivable due to the extensive Viking trade network that stretched into the Abbasid Caliphate), it could potentially lead to Muslim Vikings.


The first footholds were peaceful, though. And Majapahit and Srivijaya existed as Indonesia-like entities.
The Vikings were already connected to Christianity through the Varangian guards, heck it was them that influenced the Christianization of the Rus, not the opposite.
 
I think that if you have the Umayyads besiege successfully Constantinople before their compromise with the Bulgars, you could have the Bulgars convert to Islam, basically you can play around those religiously ambiguous nomadic group or "pagan" areas.
 
I don't think the Pechenegs were Islamic, or the Khazars
The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
 
The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
Yeah the Byzantine pull factor is too strong, frankly even just having an Islamic Anatolia would help in that regard.
 
The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.

The Khazars varied religiously. At times they are of traditional faiths, especially the wars with the Umayyad. After the Umayyad invasion, the Islamic sources report the conversion of the Khazars to Islam; no doubt a feint to remove the Umayyad armies, however, one the Muslim accepted, any way to end the war with something that could be packaged as a victory. Later, the Khazars did unveil itself as Jewish, however with undoubtedly a population majority of traditional faiths.

If I am not mistaken, the Pechenegs, were still traditional faith until their decimation against Alexios and the Cuman in the 1090. Wherein, we can assume those Pechenegs now under service of the Byzantines, converged toward Christendom.
 
Yeah the Byzantine pull factor is too strong, frankly even just having an Islamic Anatolia would help in that regard.

To be fair, then theres the immediate question of what kind of Islamic anatolia? A strong appendage of a powerful caliphate? A burgeoning regional power having ripped a good chunk out of the Byzantines? Smaller kingdoms vying for dominance but far more open to trade? Are they Sunni, Shi'a, Ibadi, or something completely different? Each factor could determine how much Islam would be attractive to a European monarch.

The Khazars varied religiously. At times they are of traditional faiths, especially the wars with the Umayyad. After the Umayyad invasion, the Islamic sources report the conversion of the Khazars to Islam; no doubt a feint to remove the Umayyad armies, however, one the Muslim accepted, any way to end the war with something that could be packaged as a victory. Later, the Khazars did unveil itself as Jewish, however with undoubtedly a population majority of traditional faiths.

If I am not mistaken, the Pechenegs, were still traditional faith until their decimation against Alexios and the Cuman in the 1090. Wherein, we can assume those Pechenegs now under service of the Byzantines, converged toward Christendom.

I actually didnt know most of that, thank you for teaching me something new! But from what you tell me, theres a strong trend for there to be rulers who choose a religion and most of the regular people simply do whatever. I feel like this would make it hard for there to be a lot of spread to other nations if just because most of the average people were only nominally Muslim.
 

Deleted member 97083

@Achaemenid Rome The concept of peaceful is an incorrect pretense from my perspective. Peaceful designates individual choices free from types of compulsion that can vary from threats, implicit threats or forced upon changes in systems. From my perspective, it is hard to argue that a conversion of some parts of Sumatra or Malaysia were peaceful in nature to the rulers it reached; as these conversions only occurred due to a scenario of compulsion and conquest that occurred between those states of Islam and those states of Hindustan.

To create similar results, one should keep in mind that the situation of the islands of Indonesia differs in the circumstances of Islamization that a theoretical european land would. An example I could muster, would be a scenario wherein, a larger section of Europe is conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate, either Byzantium or the region of Gaul. The effects of this spread east and north to a similar degree to the effect in Hindustan to Indonesia.
Alright, I will concede that it is not accurate to call the conversion of Indonesia fully peaceful. What I meant by peaceful is that a "native ruler" (e.g. the Samudera Pasai Sultanate in Indonesia's case) converts to Islam instead of being invaded by the Caliphate and there is continuity between the pre-Islamic and Islamic nobility in the region, like with the Malay states. After the initial conversion and foothold, holy war can happen within the states of the new region, but the initial foothold should be without any compulsion except for economic.

That said, didn't Volga Bulgaria convert peacefully? The northern branches of the Oghuz Turks also adopted Islam without being directly invaded.

The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
The Khazar Khaganate did not form much of a barrier, though, but effectively connected the Christian and Islamic worlds economically by means of the Varangians and Radhanites. Islam spread through the Khazar Khaganate to Volga Bulgaria, while Norse raiding parties crossed freely through Khazar territory.
 
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The Khazar Khaganate did not form much of a barrier, though, but effectively connected the Christian and Islamic worlds economically by means of the Varangians and Radhanites. Islam spread through the Khazar Khaganate to Volga Bulgaria, while Norse raiding parties crossed freely through Khazar territory

The Khazar are still gonna form a barrier for conquest. No invading army is going to go through Khazar lands and get raided all to hell before trying to conquer some land, especially considering it's basically asking to get raided to hell and back. That's assuming Muslim states gain the ability to project power into those areas anyway, considering they'd have to cross an army through unfriendly Christian Armenian territory and over the Caucasian mountains to get there. And if an army isn't gonna get there, theres no reason to convert for political or strategic reasons
 
The only way I see this happening on a large scale is with a pagan rome continuing which can slowly integrate Muslims and then convert.
 
According to tradition, the Khazar Khan invited missionaries of Chalcedonian Christianity (speaking of "Orthodox Christianity" pre-1054 is inaccurate), Islam, and Judaism for a debate before choosing Judaism, so we could have gotten a Muslim Khazaria if the Muslim missionaries had been more able to convince the Khan.
 
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