Both Russian and Persian sources suggest that Vladimir (who, after a brief attempt at centralizing Slavic paganism, chose Orthodoxy) considered conversion to Sunni Islam. Once Kievan Rus goes Muslim, there's a good chance at Lithuania becoming Muslim too.Kievan Rus seems the most obvious possibility.
Is this credible though? Isn't that part of the myth in which it's claimed that he chose Christianity because it allowed alcohol?Both Russian and Persian sources suggest that Vladimir (who, after a brief attempt at centralizing Slavic paganism, chose Orthodoxy) considered conversion to Sunni Islam. Once Kievan Rus goes Muslim, there's a good chance at Lithuania becoming Muslim too.
The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.Is this credible though? Isn't that part of the myth in which it's claimed that he chose Christianity because it allowed alcohol?
Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.Others from conquest of much of the remaining non Muslim majority, in Java in a method not dissimilar in other regions of Islam.
Also, if the Rus converted to Islam earlier than Vladimir's time (conceivable due to the extensive Viking trade network that stretched into the Abbasid Caliphate), it could potentially lead to Muslim Vikings.Both Russian and Persian sources suggest that Vladimir (who, after a brief attempt at centralizing Slavic paganism, chose Orthodoxy) considered conversion to Sunni Islam. Once Kievan Rus goes Muslim, there's a good chance at Lithuania becoming Muslim too.
The first footholds were peaceful, though. And Majapahit and Srivijaya existed as Indonesia-like entities.Indonesia did not convert peacefully, it is far more complex. As well, Indonesia as the current conglomeration, never existed in the past. Further, the situation of conversion differed by tribe or region and in some cases the conversion came from certain trade initiatives we can assume. Others from conquest of much of the remaining non Muslim majority, in Java in a method not dissimilar in other regions of Islam.
The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.
Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.
I think to change the religion you would need to change the political situation, you'd have to have the Byzantines be in a very bad spot(the Bulgarians as well, as they were Orthodox) and a stronger Islamic presence, I don't think the Pechenegs were Islamic, or the Khazars. The Volga Bulgarians alone wouldn't be enough at this point I think.The Russian chronicle says so, but a Persian source also mentions Vladimir asking for experts in Islam as he is considering conversion.
Demak was founded by a Majapahit aristocrat who honored kraton traditions just as much as Majapahit, and the babad literature makes little mention of violent conversion. There is no discontinuity between Islamic and pre-Islamic Java.
The Vikings were already connected to Christianity through the Varangian guards, heck it was them that influenced the Christianization of the Rus, not the opposite.Also, if the Rus converted to Islam earlier than Vladimir's time (conceivable due to the extensive Viking trade network that stretched into the Abbasid Caliphate), it could potentially lead to Muslim Vikings.
The first footholds were peaceful, though. And Majapahit and Srivijaya existed as Indonesia-like entities.
The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.I don't think the Pechenegs were Islamic, or the Khazars
Yeah the Byzantine pull factor is too strong, frankly even just having an Islamic Anatolia would help in that regard.The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
Yeah the Byzantine pull factor is too strong, frankly even just having an Islamic Anatolia would help in that regard.
The Khazars varied religiously. At times they are of traditional faiths, especially the wars with the Umayyad. After the Umayyad invasion, the Islamic sources report the conversion of the Khazars to Islam; no doubt a feint to remove the Umayyad armies, however, one the Muslim accepted, any way to end the war with something that could be packaged as a victory. Later, the Khazars did unveil itself as Jewish, however with undoubtedly a population majority of traditional faiths.
If I am not mistaken, the Pechenegs, were still traditional faith until their decimation against Alexios and the Cuman in the 1090. Wherein, we can assume those Pechenegs now under service of the Byzantines, converged toward Christendom.
Alright, I will concede that it is not accurate to call the conversion of Indonesia fully peaceful. What I meant by peaceful is that a "native ruler" (e.g. the Samudera Pasai Sultanate in Indonesia's case) converts to Islam instead of being invaded by the Caliphate and there is continuity between the pre-Islamic and Islamic nobility in the region, like with the Malay states. After the initial conversion and foothold, holy war can happen within the states of the new region, but the initial foothold should be without any compulsion except for economic.@Achaemenid Rome The concept of peaceful is an incorrect pretense from my perspective. Peaceful designates individual choices free from types of compulsion that can vary from threats, implicit threats or forced upon changes in systems. From my perspective, it is hard to argue that a conversion of some parts of Sumatra or Malaysia were peaceful in nature to the rulers it reached; as these conversions only occurred due to a scenario of compulsion and conquest that occurred between those states of Islam and those states of Hindustan.
To create similar results, one should keep in mind that the situation of the islands of Indonesia differs in the circumstances of Islamization that a theoretical european land would. An example I could muster, would be a scenario wherein, a larger section of Europe is conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate, either Byzantium or the region of Gaul. The effects of this spread east and north to a similar degree to the effect in Hindustan to Indonesia.
The Khazar Khaganate did not form much of a barrier, though, but effectively connected the Christian and Islamic worlds economically by means of the Varangians and Radhanites. Islam spread through the Khazar Khaganate to Volga Bulgaria, while Norse raiding parties crossed freely through Khazar territory.The Khazars were actually Jewish, and the Pechenegs were mostly apatheticly tolerant towards religion. The issue is that by the time Islam was strong in those areas, any real chance of a European ruler converting to Islam was out the window.
The Khazar Khaganate did not form much of a barrier, though, but effectively connected the Christian and Islamic worlds economically by means of the Varangians and Radhanites. Islam spread through the Khazar Khaganate to Volga Bulgaria, while Norse raiding parties crossed freely through Khazar territory
The Varangian/Rus Vikings would disagree. They both sent raiding parties through Khazaria, and also destroyed Khazaria itself.The Khazar are still gonna form a barrier for conquest. No invading army is going to go through Khazar lands and get raided all to hell before trying to conquer some land, especially considering it's basically asking to get raided to hell and back.