AHC/WI: Red and Black remain united

[Osakadave]

"Crowned heads, wealth and privilege may well tremble should ever again the Black and Red unite!"
Otto Von Bismark, 1872


Pretty much what it says on the tin - prevent the Marxist-Anarchist split.

Would an earlier death of one of the primaries, Bakunin or Marx do it? Or would it require a deeper POD? I assume that it would be earlier than the Paris Commune, or maybe even a POD that butterflies it.

And what would be the result?

 

[Osakadave]

Bump

 

[tuxer]

I think the death of Marx is more necessary than Bakunin's, specially because Marx's own dogmatic socialism was one of the crucial reasons for the split. Bukanin and other anarchists believed that Marxism would lead to a dictatorship.

The long-term effect will prevent the split of the First International and the rise of the class colaborationist Second International. I think there would be some tendency towards reformism, however with the presence of the anarchists the International Workingmen's Association would not fall completely into a reformist camp, thus allowing revolutionary ideologies like syndicalism to play a bigger role in the socialist movement.

The presence of anarchists in the International could butterfly the Propaganda of the Deed as well socialist support for World War One.

 

[Guildencrantz]

I think if this were the case, then perhaps there'd be less splintering of the Left as a whole. Because the precedent of remaining united in opposition to capitalism would be set, I'd speculate that there would be more leftist fronts. Granted, who knows how long that would last and whether it would be enough to prevent a different split down the line

 

[Max Sinister]

Are you sure he was talking about the anarchists? Black is also the color of political Catholicism, and Bismarck was against them too. One word: Kulturkampf.

 

[Guildencrantz]

Are you sure he was talking about the anarchists? Black is also the color of political Catholicism, and Bismarck was against them too. One word: Kulturkampf.

I think the Bismarck quote is incidental to the thread. The question is about anarchism and socialism. Also, Bismarck said this quote after he learned about the split of the International Workingman's Association so it's fair to say he wasn't talking about Catholicism. Plus, he said "again". While Tolstoyan Christian Anarchism was extant at the time, the Catholic Workers Movement was years away and by and large, Rome wasn't super fond of the left at the time

 

[Osakadave]

Are you sure he was talking about the anarchists? Black is also the color of political Catholicism, and Bismarck was against them too. One word: Kulturkampf.

It was made when he heard of the split if the First International, so yes, it very much applies to anarchism.

 

[Osakadave]

I think the death of Marx is more necessary than Bakunin's, specially because Marx's own dogmatic socialism was one of the crucial reasons for the split. Bukanin and other anarchists believed that Marxism would lead to a dictatorship.

The long-term effect will prevent the split of the First International and the rise of the class colaborationist Second International. I think there would be some tendency towards reformism, however with the presence of the anarchists the International Workingmen's Association would not fall completely into a reformist camp, thus allowing revolutionary ideologies like syndicalism to play a bigger role in the socialist movement.

The presence of anarchists in the International could butterfly the Propaganda of the Deed as well socialist support for World War One.

Hadn't thought about the propaganda of the deed, and funnily enough I asked a while back how to avoid it (with no real response).