AHC/WI: Proper IJN battleships deployed at Guadalcanal

What happens?

  • The Japanese still get absolutely trashed and there is no bombardment.

    Votes: 21 23.3%

  • The Japanese do much better against the USN surface forces but still no bombardment.

    Votes: 21 23.3%

  • The Japanese wreck the USN and successfully bombard Cactus, but no major repercussions.

    Votes: 11 12.2%

  • The Japanese trash Cactus and heavily swing the campaign in their favour.

    Votes: 8 8.9%

  • The Japanese wouldn't even try as logistics would prevent this and Decisive Battle TM.

    Votes: 42 46.7%
  • Total voters
    90
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Kantai Kessen

Kantai Kessen

If people here have watched the latest Drachinifel Drydock (24/10/21), he says at 11:36 that he would have sent the Nagato and the Mutsu down Ironbottom Sound during the 1942 Guadalcanal campaign to bombard Cactus Air Field, instead of the Hiei and Kirishima as they did historically during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.

Is this at all possible? And, if so, what would have happened? There is a poll for you to express your opinions...

Cheers.
 

USS_Ward

The IJN does a bit better then IOTL, since both Nagato and Mutsu are full fledged dreadnoughts and not refitted Kongo class battlecruisers- dreadnought wannabes. However the USN still has the advantage with North Carolina (and South Dakota assuming she doesn't suffer from an loss of electricity as iotl) being newer warships with radar.
 
NHBL

NHBL

Nagato and Mutsu would, IMVHO, not be risked in such confined, torpedo infested waters since they are much more important for the Decisive Battle. The battlecruisers are able to be risked; the real battleships, less so.
 
CV(N)-6

CV(N)-6

To the IJN N&M plus the Yamatos are the most valuable units until 1943 or later and can't be risked except in a massive decisive naval battle, not a relatively small engagement around Guadalcanal even if it is pretty important.
 

jlckansas

There is also the speed component to this. The Nagato's were not fast enough to go in for a night bombardment and get out far enough away in the morning. The Kongo's had already made one run and showed they had the speed to get in and out to put good distance between them and the Island. The rest of the bombardment force would have to make the run at the speed of the Nagoto's also and would be kept back to their speed, the Kongos were fast enough the DD's and CA's would able to run at the their best speed to make it.
 

CV12Hornet

There are two problems with this scenario: speed, and oil. To the first, all the battles around Guadalcanal, on the part of the Japanese, involved a 150-mile sprint at 24 or 25 knots down the Slot to avoid getting caught by American aircraft in daylight. Given the Nagato-class could only hit 24.98 knots in post-reconstruction trials, that sprint is going to be... difficult.

The second problem is oil. For all the reputation of the Yamato-class of being fuel hogs, they were outdone by the Ise and Nagato classes due to the older machinery and smaller size of those ships. The Kongos, on the other hand, were considerably more efficient at cruising speeds and during the 25-knot sprint period. You're probably looking at a near-doubling of oil consumption over the two Kongos, which given how much oil the carrier forces and the Tokyo Express were burning is a very serious problem.

Toss in the doctrinal problem (the Kongos are expendable, the Nagatos are not) and it's extremely unlikely the Japanese would have deployed Nagato and Mutsu for bombardment purposes.
 

1Big Rich

Speed is not a factor. Tameichi Hara says in his book, Japanese Destroyer Captain, that the journey down The Slot to First Guadalcanal was made at 18 knots, well within the capability of Nagato and Mutsu.

I think @NHBL has it, the battleships were too valuable to be risked before the Decisive Battle. Nagato and Mutsu are among the most powerful surface units in the navy, and are needed for the battleline. The Kongos were always out front in the war, and were viewed as more expendable. To @CV12Hornet 's point, they were also by far the most fuel efficient capital ships in the Japanese fleet.

Another issue preventing Nagato and Mutsu for executing the bombardment: I don't believe there were Type 3 bombardment rounds for the 16in at that point in the war. At best, Nagato and Mutsu would have to be a covering force for Hiei and Kirishima executing the bombardment. In that case, Callaghan is likely to suffer a bad defeat and the bombardment carried out, so the need for a second attempt leading to Second Guadalcanal wouldn't exist.

My own scenario would be Ise and Hyuga carry out the bombardment. With 50% more firepower than the Kongos, the results should be devastating, if it can be carried out in the face of USN opposition.

My thoughts,
 

CV12Hornet

A covering force is out of the question due to the fuel problem.

As far as using Ise and Hyuga, the problem is that both were in Japan having been already earmarked for their battlecarrier conversion, Ise in particular being drydocked during the time of the battle.
 

1Big Rich

CV12Hornet said:
A covering force is out of the question due to the fuel problem.
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Exactly. Midway used an entire (peacetime) year's worth of fuel for the IJN.

CV12Hornet said:
As far as using Ise and Hyuga, the problem is that both were in Japan having been already earmarked for their battlecarrier conversion, Ise in particular being drydocked during the time of the battle.
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Historically correct. I'm speculating about an operation where Hyuga has avoided the explosion in her Number 5 turret, and both battleships are fully operational.

Regards,
 

1Big Rich

CV(N)-6 said:
Wasn't Pearl in that range too?
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the Pearl Harbor raid saw only the Kido Butai and its escorts having to cross the International Date Line. The rest of the war-opening operations were western Pacific to grab resources or secure the so-called 'defensive perimeter'. As I recall, some of the destroyers in the Pearl Harbor operation had drums of fuel lashed down on deck to provide the range.

Midway saw almost the entire Combined Fleet mobilized to take two small islands in the Western Hemisphere, hence the massive usage.

My thoughts,
 
Kantai Kessen

Kantai Kessen

1Big Rich said:
the Pearl Harbor raid saw only the Kido Butai and its escorts having to cross the International Date Line. The rest of the war-opening operations were western Pacific to grab resources or secure the so-called 'defensive perimeter'. As I recall, some of the destroyers in the Pearl Harbor operation had drums of fuel lashed down on deck to provide the range.

Midway saw almost the entire Combined Fleet mobilized to take two small islands in the Western Hemisphere, hence the massive usage.

My thoughts,
Click to expand...
Which further goes to show that Midway was, to put it mildly, sus.

On another note, it's worth reminding ourselves that Mutsu was deployed for Eastern Solomons although she didn't actually get into the engagement zone, so perhaps it wouldn't be absolutely bonkers for the IJN to send in the 2nd most-important BBs?
 
Kantai Kessen

Kantai Kessen

1Big Rich said:
Historically correct. I'm speculating about an operation where Hyuga has avoided the explosion in her Number 5 turret, and both battleships are fully operational.

Regards,
Click to expand...
Was the turret explosion a factor behind the conversion? Even with 10 14-inch guns, that's still a lot of firepower, and Hyuga also has much better armour than the Kongous.

I've been considering a timeline where, for a variety of reasons, Kaga manages to survive Midway and so the IJN doesn't feel the need for the battleship conversions (incidentally this also means the Shinano is completed as a BB). If that happened, do you think the Ises could be sent down the Slot?
 

CV12Hornet

Kantai Kessen said:
Which further goes to show that Midway was, to put it mildly, sus.

On another note, it's worth reminding ourselves that Mutsu was deployed for Eastern Solomons although she didn't actually get into the engagement zone, so perhaps it wouldn't be absolutely bonkers for the IJN to send in the 2nd most-important BBs?
Click to expand...
The Japanese were basically using her as a very well-armed tanker during that op; she refueled the destroyers and then spent the entire battle sitting with the fleet train.
 

jlckansas

Kantai Kessen said:
Was the turret explosion a factor behind the conversion? Even with 10 14-inch guns, that's still a lot of firepower, and Hyuga also has much better armour than the Kongous.

I've been considering a timeline where, for a variety of reasons, Kaga manages to survive Midway and so the IJN doesn't feel the need for the battleship conversions (incidentally this also means the Shinano is completed as a BB). If that happened, do you think the Ises could be sent down the Slot?
Click to expand...
If you are looking at number of guns on board you would be better off sending the 2 Fuso's instead of 2 Ise's. They are way more expendable than they are and definitely more than the Nagato's. And having to only go 18 knots make them even better than the other ones to use. The Fusos's had 12 x 14" Guns that could be used for the bombardment.
 

1Big Rich

Kantai Kessen said:
Was the turret explosion a factor behind the conversion? Even with 10 14-inch guns, that's still a lot of firepower, and Hyuga also has much better armour than the Kongous.

I've been considering a timeline where, for a variety of reasons, Kaga manages to survive Midway and so the IJN doesn't feel the need for the battleship conversions (incidentally this also means the Shinano is completed as a BB). If that happened, do you think the Ises could be sent down the Slot?
Click to expand...

Yes. Mutsu was part of the 'Support Force' with 4 destroyers. Another one of those needlessly complex plans of the IJN when they should have been massing the firepower of the fleet. But that didn't fit their doctrine.

Kantai Kessen said:
Was the turret explosion a factor behind the conversion? Even with 10 14-inch guns, that's still a lot of firepower, and Hyuga also has much better armour than the Kongous.

I've been considering a timeline where, for a variety of reasons, Kaga manages to survive Midway and so the IJN doesn't feel the need for the battleship conversions (incidentally this also means the Shinano is completed as a BB). If that happened, do you think the Ises could be sent down the Slot?
Click to expand...

Yes, the turret explosion happened on May 5th 1942 during gunnery practice. The turret was subsequently removed and plated over with three triple 25mm AA fitted in its place. After Midway, consideration was given to converting older battleships to battleship-carriers. Fuso and Yamashiro were considered too slow (but may have been done anyway had things gone differently), Nagato and Mutsu were considered to valuable for the battleline. Ise and Hyuga were chosen, but there was also another factor. The IJN increased the elevation of its guns by having them go lower into the trunnion of the turret (as opposed to what the RN did with the 15in, cutting the turret face/roof). The after turrets of Ise and Hyuga were in a shallow part of the ship and could not depress as low as the other turret, so they were not able to use their full armament for long range gunnery anyway. After the explosion, Hyuga was essentially a four turret ship anyway for any kind of range shooting, so why not convert her anyway? Since she wouldn't operate singly, her sister might was well be done too.

Regards,
 

CV12Hornet

Noteworthy, the problem with the Fuso class wasn't their rated top speed - which was well in line with the Ises and Nagatos - but the fact that their machinery had deterioriated quite badly by wartime; apparently they were only good for 21 knots by Leyte Gulf. This was due to the fact that they had all been modernized first, around 1930 rather than 1935 like the remaining Japanese battleships.
 
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