AHC/WI: Prevent the Great American streetcar scandal

Here the problem in more detail

I love the idea that L.A. streetcars and original Metro line would still work.
In the discussion sprung up a roadmap:

1930s Streetcars lines vs. General Motors. first round.
struggle ending that Capitol hill hit on General Motors fingers and that Streetcar lines and Metro-lines become part of the "New Deal"

World War Two
the US car industry is shut down, they produce Tanks and Aircraft and Weapons for the War.
Streetcar lines and Metro-lines are good alternative for rationing fuel.
while Metro-lines offer good deep air raid shelters.

1950s-1960s Streetcars lines vs. General Motors. second round.
while the Metro-lines with Nuclear bunkers are build under the major US Cities.
GM offer Streetbus-lines for Big Cities.
The Streetcars lines fight back with additional servis, like Cargo Streetcars into the City centers for Postal or furnisher.

until oil crisis of 1973
suddenly Metro and Streetcars back in game while, Cars and Buses loosing because high fuel cost.
allot of people do not buy a new car (eider American Japanese or German) instead use the Streetcars or Metro, this hitting General Motors deep.
The 1970s will be dominated by rapid transit systems.
even first major cities are now connecting there RTS lines and cover large areas, similar to Japans RTS and Train system.

1980s Streetcars lines vs. General Motors. third round.
with the growth of US population the suburbs are spreading now faster out, as the Streetcars & Metro Lines can cover.
here is General Motors comeback with the publicity slogan "be American, buy American car" offering SUV or family cars for suburbs.
will GM get the superiority back or will the two rivals haver there own economic niche were they live together ?
 
A compromise is the use of "trackless trolleys" - electric buses powered via overhead lines. This allows the use of the electric power infrastructure that also powers streetcars/interurbans and of course is less polluting and produces point source pollution which is easier to manage. As technology improves, the buses can have battery power which is recharged when on the power lines, but allows for travel off the lines in areas of less dens travel where installing overhead lines is not financially attractive &/or the locals don't want overhead lines. An example would be power lines in the central shopping area of a suburb, but not in residential areas...and an interchange streetcar/interurban to go from suburb to suburb or in to the city.

BTW interurbans did carry cargo, many of the interurban electric lines in some farming areas would transport milk to dairies...
 

Hoist40

Banned
A compromise is the use of "trackless trolleys" - electric buses powered via overhead lines. ...

Trolley buses and trolleys use a different system of overhead power.

Trolleys use their rails as part of the electric circuit so they only need one overhead wire.

Trolley buses use a double overhead wire with two pickups.

At the very least you would have to modify the overhead wires to provide both sides of the circuit and either have the buses and trolleys use the same system or have the trolleys use just one overhead wire and use its rails for the return while the buses use both overhead wires.

I don't think its a deal breaker, it just needs some more engineering work
 
Trolley buses and trolleys use a different system of overhead power.

Trolleys use their rails as part of the electric circuit so they only need one overhead wire.

Trolley buses use a double overhead wire with two pickups.

At the very least you would have to modify the overhead wires to provide both sides of the circuit and either have the buses and trolleys use the same system or have the trolleys use just one overhead wire and use its rails for the return while the buses use both overhead wires.

I don't think its a deal breaker, it just needs some more engineering work

This is not necessarily the case. I'm pretty sure the buses in San Francisco use the same overhead wires as the streetcars. Can a native confirm/refute?
 

FDW

Banned
This is not necessarily the case. I'm pretty sure the buses in San Francisco use the same overhead wires as the streetcars. Can a native confirm/refute?

Yes, the streetcars and trolleybuses do share a segment of wire along Market St, but outside of Market they have separate wires. Also, many American cities OTL used the electrical infrastructure for the Streetcar systems for Trolleybuses when they decided to rip out the rails.
 

Hoist40

Banned
You need supply and return for electricity to flow. With vehicles that run on rails, most use the rails as the return while only having one wire overhead to supply electricity. With trolley buses they don’t have rails so they must use a more complicated double wire with two trolley poles to provide both supply and return. You can build a rail vehicle and use a double wire system but most don’t have this.

What I am pointing out is not a show stopper, it just means that you have to change the wiring if you convert the system from a regular trolley that runs on rails to one that can operate both rail and trolley buses
 
Yes, the streetcars and trolleybuses do share a segment of wire along Market St, but outside of Market they have separate wires. Also, many American cities OTL used the electrical infrastructure for the Streetcar systems for Trolleybuses when they decided to rip out the rails.

You need supply and return for electricity to flow. With vehicles that run on rails, most use the rails as the return while only having one wire overhead to supply electricity. With trolley buses they don’t have rails so they must use a more complicated double wire with two trolley poles to provide both supply and return. You can build a rail vehicle and use a double wire system but most don’t have this.

What I am pointing out is not a show stopper, it just means that you have to change the wiring if you convert the system from a regular trolley that runs on rails to one that can operate both rail and trolley buses

I am now confused as to how both of these can be true. And...FIGHT!:p
 

FDW

Banned
I am now confused as to how both of these can be true. And...FIGHT!:p

On the Market St segment that I was talking about, the Streetcar only uses one of the two wires, while the Trolleybuses use both.
 
Aha, now I understand.

Then I suppose the strength of the compromise would then rest on whether it's practical to install the additional trolleybus wires or not. Which likely directly relates to the price of gas.
 
You need supply and return for electricity to flow. With vehicles that run on rails, most use the rails as the return while only having one wire overhead to supply electricity. With trolley buses they don’t have rails so they must use a more complicated double wire with two trolley poles to provide both supply and return. You can build a rail vehicle and use a double wire system but most don’t have this.
But wouldn't this mean the rails are electrified and therefore too dangerous to touch, just like third rails? How then could the streetcar rails be embedded in streets that people crossed regularly?
 
But wouldn't this mean the rails are electrified and therefore too dangerous to touch, just like third rails? How then could the streetcar rails be embedded in streets that people crossed regularly?

No the rails are ground so no shock. Some cities like Dayton and Columbus OH, and I am sure there are others, used 2 wires on the trolleys instead of using the rails for ground.:D
 
Sorry about the confusion - I understand the difference between electrical flow for the 2 types of trolleys (rail vs trackless). What I meant was the total generating capacity, substations, etc can be shared between the two systems making them synergistic.
 
sloreck said:
This allows the use of the electric power infrastructure that also powers streetcars/interurbans
It runs into the same problem the streetcars & interurbans had: FDR trust-busting the electric utilities...
Michel Van said:
Metro-lines become part of the "New Deal"
Sounds good. Except it doesn't deal with what happens postwar, in the sudden affluence (& boom in car sales). You need to make cars more expensive to own, not just operate (with higher gas taxes): special licence fees & taxes, manufacturing & sales taxes, even car shipping taxes.
Michel Van said:
Streetcars lines fight back with additional servis, like Cargo Streetcars
Some companies did that OTL. It didn't save them. If you can get them through the Depression, maybe it can, IDK. I have my doubts.
Michel Van said:
oil crisis of 1973
suddenly Metro and Streetcars back in game while, Cars and Buses loosing because high fuel cost.
allot of people do not buy a new car
People who owned cars didn't avoid new cars because of the crisis, they just drove less. You need a deep recession, or a drastic increase in car durability (which Japanese competition, ironically, created), or both. Or a drastic increase in the total cost to buy & operate a car at all.

You've also got to deal with the social issues: rich folk in some places (notably L.A.) actively tried to kill streetcars to keep poor blacks out of (richer) white neighborhoods. They succeeded, because the bus service was inferior (by design).
Michel Van said:
with the growth of US population the suburbs are spreading now faster out
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: This is a very bad idea. (Unabashed plug.:p)
 

FDW

Banned
Sorry about the confusion - I understand the difference between electrical flow for the 2 types of trolleys (rail vs trackless). What I meant was the total generating capacity, substations, etc can be shared between the two systems making them synergistic.

Yes, so long as they're the same voltage there's no problem at all. This is the case in San Francisco, where the Trolleybuses, Streetcars and LRV's all share the same the same infrastructure.
 
All right, let's set forth a few basics about traction vehicles, both streetcars and trolley coaches:
  • Both operate on 600 volts DC, delivered by bronze overhead trolley wire.
  • The return leg of the circuit for streetcars uses one of two rails-commonly that closer to the curb in two track installations.
  • The return leg for trolley coaches is the second overhead wire. I believe (but my memory is fuzzy here) the wire closer to the center of the street is the live one and the one closer to the curb is the return in two "track" operation
  • Substation and distribution equipment are identical: one can use the other, and often did. Substations and feeders used in streetcar service were used with no modification, save for the nature of the return conductors in street usage, when lines converted from streetcars to trolley coaches.
  • The traction motors used to drive either are fundamentally identical.
  • In situations where streetcars and trolley coaches shared a thoroughfare, often the two shared the live wire (cases in point: San Francisco's Market Street and the now-gone installation on Howard Street in Baltimore).
 
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