FDW
Banned
Something like an automatic "green light" for intersections? (Otherwise, you've got to rebuild all the surface crossings.
No, Right-of-Way as in actually taking one lane in each direction and reserving for the Streetcars.
AHC/WI: Prevent the Great American streetcar scandal
- Thread starter LHB
- Start date
No, Right-of-Way as in actually taking one lane in each direction and reserving for the Streetcars.
The problem is that freeway systems can 'reach' more communities than streetcars can, so freeways in America will get more support, IMHO. You can mitigate it somewht, but the cat's out of the bag by the mid 20s.
FDW
Banned
Not really, most of the Interurban systems paralleled major highways. It's just circumstances tilted the government towards subsidizing the highways at the cost of Public Transport OTL before the major private systems went bankrupt. And I think you're misreading what I meant by consolidation: what I actually meant was that weaker branches that previously went all the the city center (most streetcar systems were historically ridiculously radial in design), would be either connected to another weaker branch or eliminated entirely. Like I said, more investment really is key here, and government investment would be the best way during this time period.
Yes, cars are great until you reach saturation then they suck big time. I don't think anyone seriously suggests that cars will be eliminated entirely, especially not muscle cars since they are so cool. But many journeys for many people are done on the same route at the same time of day and a decent public transport system can often prove superior to the car for these autopilot commutes.
One way to keep streetcars/interurbans in the mix is to utilize the "median" of new highways. Making the highway just a little wider allows for trains to run down the center (lots of examples do exist). This is essential "free" right of way (and can probably avoid being taxed as still "state owned"). In more congested areas can elevate but use same space. Also incentives for suburban developers to plan for streetcar lines connecting to main interurban lines, and some planning that puts shopping centers/malls on streetcar lines, preferably where 2 more more come together.
FDW
Banned
No, but it's fairly cheap and does result in some real improvements in speed. You can remove some stops to make it even faster.
A lot of Interurban historically followed the paths of pre-exisitng highways.
The 'paved roads' movement was starting up even before 1910, and had reached a tipping point in political influence sometime before or around 1920. Commuter rail was what i would call a 'mature' industry. That is after 1900 its managment was complacent about investment in improvement and it did not understand the economic advantages and threat of the newer automobile industry. My guess is light rail must have some unusually forward looking owners/managment and massive investment in development before 1920 if it is to survive against the automobile after 1930.
On the political front the light rail owners would need to gain some sort of economic benefit large enough to offset the advantage of the automobile with its tax financed road construction.
What is the "Great American streetcar scandal"?
Are you referring to the myth that "GM murdered the streetcars"?
That's been thoroughly exploded. What killed the streetcar was that it couldn't complete with motorbuses.
Buses had lower infrastructure cost and enormously greater flexibility.
Also (don't underestimate this) a bus can pull to the side of the street to pick up or drop off passengers. Streetcars have to stop in the middle of the street, blocking traffic. And passengers have to wait in the middle of the street, which is dangerous, and where they can't be sheltered.
By the late 1920s, virtually all public transit systems were converting to buses for surface transport, and private streetcar systems were going broke - a trend which accelerated in the 1930s.
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
With no offense meant to you personally, that sounds like some stuff along the lines of "the CIA invented crack to destroy the black community."
FDW
Banned
I'm not seeing how.
That would seem self-defeating, since it reduces service.
I'm also wondering how you deal with the noise. I don't imagine suburbanites would thrill to trains running through at all hours.
Historically, Streetcar lines, and the buses that replaced them stopped at the corner of every block, which does awful things to the speed of the service. Sensibly cut things back a bit and you can dramatically increase speed while sacrificing very little in terms of coverage.
And the reason why those streetcars couldn't compete with buses was because they weren't upgraded further, and the infrastructure supporting them was largely left to rot. And with the Middle of the street waiting, you can just build islands in the street where passengers CAN be sheltered. And the conversion dates should be 1930's and 1940's, not 20's and 30's.
As has been pointed out, by the end of WWI, the streetcar is fighting an uphill battle against the automobile and it's only getting steeper. Some things that could lessen the slope:
- More capital investment in the 1920's & 1930's. Paradoxically, the 20's might be more difficult with postwar inflation and labor troubles, while the 30's might have more funding available from the Hoover & Roosevelt programs to combat the Depression. The problem is, the longer it is put off the harder it is going to be to catch up. Finishing (or implementing) the many unbuilt rapid transit proposals (mostly subways) will help quite a bit.
- Break the wall around gasoline taxes so they can be used for general revenues instead of just for road building. One reason for Europe's higher transit use is Europe's much higher fuel prices.
- Stop/slow sprawl. Rail transportation, freight or passenger, works best moving volume business. Moving people from relatively dense urban neighborhoods to denser urban cores is what it's all about. Moving people from dispersed suburban neighborhoods to dense urban cores can work. Moving people from dispesed suburban neighborhoods to equally dispersed suburban office/industrial parks makes a transit planner want to cry. (It is said that President Eisenhower thought the Interstate Highway Act would only build freeways between cities, not within them-and was surprised to find out the amount of urban demolition that it brought about.)
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katchen
Banned
I might add that if the railroads had had more clout, they could have pushed through legislation requiring tolls on all intercity highways--on the ground that free highways were unfair competition for the railroads--unfair because the government is subsidizing alternatives to rqailroads. ITTL, the reason this did not occur was the tremendous resentment Americans felt toward railroads because of their high handed business tactics. Believe it or not, people a hundred years ago DID MOBILIZE EFFECTIVELY aganist monopolistic big business even though it appears to be impossible to do so today.
FDW
Banned
Hell, you're going to see some system go down no matter what, but depending on how things go, even with relatively minor pushes you can bring the number of surviving streetcar systems up from about 6 OTL to around 30 or so (going by when they closed OTL). With a more maximal push, that number could more than double.
Actually, I think a more likely scenario is that streetcars will become less popular, but interurbans will be upgraded to commuter rail akin to what you see in Japan now. Los Angeles will end up looking like a larger version of Tokyo in terms of commuter rail transport.
FDW
Banned
Yeah, I could see that. If fact, that's where many modern American Light Rail systems are going to be headed in the future OTL. But still, I could imagine streetcars being considerably more prevalent in the scenario you propose than was the case OTL.
I disagree about the streetcars, because you can't easily reroute street car lines to accommodate demographic changes to the city like like you can with buses. Besides, by the late 1940's bus technology had improved enough they could become very viable for travel in intracity operations.
In short, at least in the Los Angeles area, many of the longer Pacific Electric interurban lines will get upgraded with modern rail cars and many Pacific Electric lines rebuilt with dedicated rights of way--in short, the equivalent of today's Los Angeles Metro Rail system comes into existence by the middle to late 1950's.
FDW
Banned
Actually, not that many streetcar lines would need to be moved. The Streetcar lines that were the most important 50 years ago generally mirror what are the most important bus lines today in most American cities. And Streetcars have a significant advantage of their own: the ability to increase capacity without needing additional operators, also Streetcars are generally more capable than many people here seem to realize.
True, what Trams lack in so called flexibility they make up for in capacity and (with decent rights of way) through-traffic speed. The supporters of the current 'system' seem to ignore traffic chaos and gridlock and cost of parking or its sheer inaccessibility. Driving in many cities is a terrible pain in the arse which is why public transport is patronised by the affluent as well as the poor.