AHC/WI/Poll: Morocco and England conquer the Spanish Americas

Could England and Morocco together have conquered a significant portion of the Spanish Americas?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 18.2%

  • No

    Votes: 27 81.8%
  • Total voters
    33

Intransigent Southerner

From "Morocco and Atlantic History," by James A.O.C. Brown:

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Thoughts? Could Al-Mansur and Elizabeth (or James I) really have managed?

What would be the repercussions of such a monumental POD?
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

Highly doubt it will have much success.Which parts of the Spanish Americas exactly are they trying to get?I don't think they will be able to get anything other than a few outlying islands in the Caribbean.By 1600,there's already a large amount of Spanish settlers in the Spanish Americas.The settlers also seem to be quite militarized.I also don't think the expedition would be extremely strong.
 
St. Just

St. Just

Morocco had no fleets, the English weren't yet a naval superpower, and they'd not only have to beat Spain's navies but then land enough troops to take mainland territories against disease and hostile forces.

It's up there with Hideyoshi for grand ideas that had no chance of even being attemptable.
 

Gog (♀)

I'm just really wondering the naval capacities of Morroco here. Since this is in a book about Morroco can you give us some context to this part?
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

Gog3451 said:
I'm just really wondering the naval capacities of Morroco here. Since this is in a book about Morroco can you give us some context to this part?
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I was under the impression that they did have some serious naval capabilities,they did operate corsairs that raided the Atlantic and the Mediterranean after all.Some of these corsairs raided as far as Ireland,so I'm hesitant to say they have no naval capability whatsoever.
 

Youngmarshall

Al-Mansur was a man in a very weak position who used the art of bluff to make it seem like he was in a strong one.

This proposal was a perfect example of that, it wasn't something he could actually do but it was important to him that the English believed he could.
 

Youngmarshall

darthfanta said:
I was under the impression that they did have some serious naval capabilities,they did operate corsairs that raided the Atlantic and the Mediterranean after all.Some of these corsairs raided as far as Ireland,so I'm hesitant to say they have no naval capability whatsoever.
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Dutch crews operating out of Moroccan ports raided Ireland. Not the same thing.
 

Deleted member 67076

No. Neither England nor Morocco had the manpower and fleets to accomplish such a thing, but by 1600 Spanish control of their territories was firm, the population was beginning to (slowly) rebound and the amount of settlers was enough to form a new feudal class.

Spain sent around 250,000 Castilians in its first century abroad.
 

Youngmarshall

darthfanta said:
The Dutch only formed a percentage of the crew.Most of the crew were from the Maghreb.
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The sale rovers were overwhelmingly Morisco crews led by European renegades rather than native berbers. They had a contentious relationship with the Moroccan crown at best and their heyday was after al-Mansur's death.
 
Avrorrange

Avrorrange

Youngmarshall said:
The sale rovers were overwhelmingly Morisco crews led by European renegades rather than native berbers. They had a contentious relationship with the Moroccan crown at best and their heyday was after al-Mansur's death.
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And these European renegades have no difficulty being pressed into Moroccan service if the price is right.From the primary sources I've read,there's plenty of European 'adventurers',especially Englishmen, in the service of the Moroccan Sultan's military forces during this period.
 
St. Just

St. Just

They also had an independent state, the Republic of Sale, and Jan Janszoon's descendants ended up in New Amsterdam. In any case, they were not under any appreciable degree of control from far-inland Fes or Marrakesh
 
Planet of Hats

Planet of Hats

Donor
I sincerely doubt this would've worked. Morocco seems to be one of those places where they have the potential to be a colonial power, but for whatever reason they never seem to be able to do it.

In memetic terms, "Morocco cannot into colony."
 

Youngmarshall

Planet of Hats said:
I sincerely doubt this would've worked. Morocco seems to be one of those places where they have the potential to be a colonial power, but for whatever reason they never seem to be able to do it.

In memetic terms, "Morocco cannot into colony."
Click to expand...

They really didn't. Al-Mansur was attempting to project the appearance of strength by talking about it but it was never a realistic option.
 
St. Just

St. Just

Planet of Hats said:
I sincerely doubt this would've worked. Morocco seems to be one of those places where they have the potential to be a colonial power, but for whatever reason they never seem to be able to do it.

In memetic terms, "Morocco cannot into colony."
Click to expand...

I don't even think they had the potential -- they had been land-focused since the Almoravids or earlier, their ports never reached the level of Algiers or Tunis, and said ports were constantly being fought over by Morocco and Iberians, which obviously puts a damper on potential colonialism.

But yes, Morocco (and just about everywhere else outside of Europe) cannot into New World.
 
Planet of Hats

Planet of Hats

Donor
Youngmarshall said:
They really didn't. Al-Mansur was attempting to project the appearance of strength by talking about it but it was never a realistic option.
Click to expand...
Leaving aside al-Mansur, Morocco has a great location for reaching the New World. It just never managed to build a political structure that could really... y'know... sustain itself, or at least project its own authority without getting punched in the face by the latest wave of tribal interests. If you somehow stabilize Morocco in the Middle Ages you might have the potential for a colonial power, but al-Mansur isn't going to be able to do anything.

re. El Yanqui: I don't think the Almoravids even had a navy, or if they did, not much of one.
 

Deleted member 93645

Al-Mansur's offer in the first paragraph sounds like those email scams. "I am a wealthy prince of Morocco who has inherited 4,000,000 dinars. I am willing to offer 95% to you. However, I will need several payments of 2,000 to transfer the money, oh and can you send me a ship."
 

Arkenfolm

Al-Mansur was a genius, but he had a horrible situation. Considering Morocco's potential in the New World, it's almost surprising they didn't do more there OTL other than Al-Mansur coming up with ideas related to it. At least a sugar island might've been there's, even if a Muslim power operating in that area might be...difficult, to say the least.

To gain Latin America is basically impossible, unless all the Indians just decide to go over to supporting England and Morocco for some reason.

El Yanqui said:
Morocco had no fleets, the English weren't yet a naval superpower, and they'd not only have to beat Spain's navies but then land enough troops to take mainland territories against disease and hostile forces.

It's up there with Hideyoshi for grand ideas that had no chance of even being attemptable.
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Basically this.
 

Strategos' Risk

Holy shit this is an amazing idea. Wait, the Portuguese have been allies for the British since perpetuity right, why don't they all team up agains the Spanish.

Oh wait the Iberian Union was between 1580 and 1640 well gg Moorish guy

Wait what if the Moroccans just opened their ports for British free movement as a jumping off point for expeditions to the New World and to attack the Spaniards with
 
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