AHC/WI: Polish-Hungarian alliance in 1939

With any PoD after Anschluss, have Hungary instead of refusing to allow Wehrmacht pass through their territory, outright militarly support Poland and Allies against Germany. Bonus points for also getting Romania on the allied side.

How would Poles and Hungarians fare against Germany, how would the situation develop on both fronts and how would Soviet Union react to this development.
 
With any PoD after Anschluss, have Hungary instead of refusing to allow Wehrmacht pass through their territory, outright militarly support Poland and Allies against Germany. Bonus points for also getting Romania on the allied side.

How would Poles and Hungarians fare against Germany, how would the situation develop on both fronts and how would Soviet Union react to this development.
Well, considering that Hungary is flat as crud (it's the Pannonian Plain) and that the only territorial connection between Hungary and Poland is via Carpathian Ruthenia, ie the Carpathian mountains, well it's gonna play to Germany's strengths. However, the envelopment of Poland is ruined by Hungary being behind Slovakia.
We could see the Germans trying a two-time offensive : first take out Hungary, then Poland. However, that would leave a highly ready Poland with Germany's playbook. No conquest in five weeks this time.
 
I dont think it would seriously change anything during the war. It would change the afterwar. Hungary would be instead of a German ally on the loosing side be one of Germanies victims and count on the winning side. They would still got a socialist regime thanks to the red army but likely end up territorially bigger than OTL - likely get back/keep some of the hungarian majority areas alongside the border.
 
how would Soviet Union react to this development.

Probably by demanding a better deal in the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. Maybe more of Romania including Ploesti, or a partition of Poland and Lithuania along 1914 borders. So if Barbarossa happens Germany will be starting from a worse position and will likely have to keep some forces in Hungary on occupation duty instead of sending them to the front.
 
You could have the Hungarians be given the Nazi puppet state of Slovakia after the war and compensate the Czech-Slovakia by giving them Saxony and Silesia to give them the borders of Great Moravia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Moravia.svg and move the Slovakians to this new state and move the germans out like what happens with Poland. Poland could get be expanded a little more westward to compensate to its borders from 1000 AD along with the northern half of sorb lands not included in Saxony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Border_changes_in_history_of_Poland.png (if we assume they fall under Soviet rule like it) you could also have the soviets choose to give the Hungarian claims in eastern Austria to Hungary in full from the soviet occupation zone of Austria and then give the rest over to the Czech as it was also part of greater moravia,(if the sovits decided not to reunite east and west Austria as a neutral state but decided east Austria was two small to keep independent) in exchange could keep west Austria under the rational that Austria fate, unlike the rest, was decided by referendum, not invasion so they would be punished alongside Germany and not seen as victims but as willing collaborators.
 
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I dont think it would seriously change anything during the war. It would change the afterwar. Hungary would be instead of a German ally on the loosing side be one of Germanies victims and count on the winning side. They would still got a socialist regime thanks to the red army but likely end up territorially bigger than OTL - likely get back/keep some of the hungarian majority areas alongside the border.
But which territories would Hungary able to keep? Ruthenia will be taken by Soviets and Czechoslovakia, well Czechoslovakia was 1st victim after Munich.
I guess 3 villages granted to Czechoslovakia post WWII would be kept.
So yes you are right. Hungary would end up bit bigger post WWII.
 
You could have the Hungarians be given the Nazi puppet state of Slovakia after the war and compensate the Czech-Slovakia by giving them Saxony and Silesia to give them the borders of Great Moravia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Moravia.svg and move the Slovakians to this new state and move the germans out like what happens with Poland. Poland could get be expanded a little more westward to compensate to its borders from 1000 AD along with the northern half of sorb lands not included in Saxony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Border_changes_in_history_of_Poland.png (if we assume they fall under Soviet rule like it) you could also have the soviets choose to give the Hungarian claims in eastern Austria to Hungary in full from the soviet occupation zone of Austria and then give the rest over to the Czech as it was also part of greater moravia,(if the sovits decided not to reunite east and west Austria as a neutral state but decided east Austria was two small to keep independent) in exchange could keep west Austria under the rational that Austria fate, unlike the rest, was decided by referendum, not invasion so they would be punished alongside Germany and not seen as victims but as willing collaborators.
That’s bit too much. Especially as Czechoslovakia was 1st victim after Munich and Czechoslovaks were actively fighting in west and east, Slovaks being anywhere from 20 to way over 50% of manpower in these armies. For example in France 1940 50% of men in Cs Infantry Div were Slovaks.
 
But which territories would Hungary able to keep? Ruthenia will be taken by Soviets and Czechoslovakia, well Czechoslovakia was 1st victim after Munich.
I guess 3 villages granted to Czechoslovakia post WWII would be kept.
So yes you are right. Hungary would end up bit bigger post WWII.

Most likely border change is with romania (the cities of Satu Mare, Oradea and Arad mainly) though i wouldnt completly rule out some changes with Czechslovakia and Jugoslavia either.
 
Most likely border change is with romania (the cities of Satu Mare, Oradea and Arad mainly) though i wouldnt completly rule out some changes with Czechslovakia and Jugoslavia either.
Well Czechoslovak border with Poland returned to pre Munich settings. Even Slovak Polish border despite Slovakia taking it in September 1939. Returned to Poland were territories with Slovak majority ceded in 20-ties.
 

BigBlueBox

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Hungary was satisfied with its gains from Czechoslovakia and knew it couldn't beat Germany anyways. The only way I could see Poland and Hungary both starting on the allied side is if Britain and France go to war against Germany over Czechoslovakia. After Prague falls the Czechoslovak government evacuates but a collaborationist regime is set up in Slovakia. Once the tide of war turns against Germany (a failed Norwegian campaign or Fall Gelb) the allies launch their own offensive into Germany. Hungary invades Germany's Slovak puppet and Poland invades East Prussia and Silesia.
 
That’s bit too much. Especially as Czechoslovakia was 1st victim after Munich and Czechoslovaks were actively fighting in west and east, Slovaks being anywhere from 20 to way over 50% of manpower in these armies. For example in France 1940 50% of men in Cs Infantry Div were Slovaks.
This would be not to punish the Slovaks but to make border adjustments like otl Poland with Poland being compensated with German land for the soviats an axing land in the east. But if you think that's still a stretch then we could explore eastward expansion instead with hungry retains southern Slovakia, and assuming a Romania axis hungry should be able to annex (after the war) at least the northern (as a condor) and central half of Transylvania (Hungarian majority) after the war which should give them the borders of otl axis Hungary.
 
This would be not to punish the Slovaks but to make border adjustments like otl Poland with Poland being compensated with German land for the soviats an axing land in the east. But if you think that's still a stretch then we could explore eastward expansion instead with hungry retains southern Slovakia, and assuming a Romania axis hungry should be able to annex (after the war) at least the northern (as a condor) and central half of Transylvania (Hungarian majority) after the war which should give them the borders of otl axis Hungary.

In Transylvania there is really only Hungarian majority in Szeklerland - and sporadically elsewhere with a significant hungarian minority in most places. Its impossible to make a good border there - meaning one reflecting the ethicities. Alongside the OTL hungarian-romanian border (this is not really a part of Transylvania) there was a Hungarian majority (I think this has changed since than) and as the soviets would not want to punish the Romanians too hard (OTL) realistically I say that a not too big but very significant area alongside OTL border is given to Hungary. Most likely including the cities of Satu Mare, Oradea and Arad and the areas between them. The border with Slovakia after the Vienna decision was very good in the sense that it reflected the ethnic boundaries pretty well (not perfectly). But its hard to keep as Czechslovakia was considered a winner (though the role Slovakia played could be worth investigating). In the case of Jugoslavia the city of Subotica and some area south of it could be returned. Also unlikely. But if this was done hungarian national minorities would basically disappear outside of Romania and even there they would be massivly reduced while Hungary would still be about 90% hungarian. Would solve some of the problems of the region.
 
The border with Slovakia after the Vienna decision was very good in the sense that it reflected the ethnic boundaries pretty well (not perfectly). But its hard to keep as Czechslovakia was considered a winner (though the role Slovakia played could be worth investigating).
Actually post Vienna border was not really reflecting ethnic borders.
According to 1930 Czechoslovak census some 549 376 Hungarians and 431 545 Czechoslovaks lived on territories granted to Hungary.
Post Little war eastern border added majority Slovak and Ruthenian territories with almost no single Hungarian living there.

Well as to investigate role of Slovakia - Tiso was hanged for treason, his part on aggressive war against Poland and USSR and other crimes.
Also Slovaks had % more volunteers in Czechoslovak army abroad then was their % on Czechoslovak population (from some 50% in France to around 20% for most part of war to over 80% in 1944) and actually Slovak politician Osusky was man who kickstarted Czechoslovak Government in Exile.

Also there was this little thing called Slovak National Uprising, one of largest Uprisings against Germans in Europe which despite being defeated lasted 2 months.
Another thing, Munich was proclaimed null and void by Allies. Vienna award was consequence of Munich so end up same way.

And I am not saying border post WWII couldn’t be more just for Hungarians.

Problem in my opinion post WWI was Hungarians feeling lost of whole Slovakia was not just and basically they were not willing to accept loss of Upper land as a whole, not just ethnically Hungarian territories.

It would be interesting though if Poland and Hungary have seen possibilities of things going wrong for them after 1938 and offered Czechoslovakia support for straightening borders along ethnic lines based on plebiscite overviewed by international observers.
However this was not possible as Hungary jumped on German wagon which they saw as only opportunity to clear their territorial claims to basically all of their neighbors.
And to be honest I am not sure how would be such offer viewed in Prague. Benes was asked for years by Czechoslovak Generals to straighten relations with Poland. Did he managed to do something about it?

For Slovakia borders post Vienna were economically survive able - Slovakia was able to feed itself basically to summer 1944 and even export. More just border would be even easier. Especially if deal was accompanied with right to pass for trains without hold ups.
 
You could have the Hungarians be given the Nazi puppet state of Slovakia after the war and compensate the Czech-Slovakia by giving them Saxony and Silesia to give them the borders of Great Moravia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Moravia.svg and move the Slovakians to this new state and move the germans out like what happens with Poland. Poland could get be expanded a little more westward to compensate to its borders from 1000 AD along with the northern half of sorb lands not included in Saxony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Border_changes_in_history_of_Poland.png (if we assume they fall under Soviet rule like it) you could also have the soviets choose to give the Hungarian claims in eastern Austria to Hungary in full from the soviet occupation zone of Austria and then give the rest over to the Czech as it was also part of greater moravia,(if the sovits decided not to reunite east and west Austria as a neutral state but decided east Austria was two small to keep independent) in exchange could keep west Austria under the rational that Austria fate, unlike the rest, was decided by referendum, not invasion so they would be punished alongside Germany and not seen as victims but as willing collaborators.
rough map of this:
hun2.png
 
Actually post Vienna border was not really reflecting ethnic borders.
And to be honest I am not sure how would be such offer viewed in Prague. Benes was asked for years by Czechoslovak Generals to straighten relations with Poland. Did he managed to do something about it?
To my knowledge it didn't work out at all before annexation of Czechoslovakia. After that these Generals created Czechoslovak Legion iirc it was called, that fought alongside Poles in 1939. Any alliance with Czechoslovakia would need either Prague being completely compliant with Polish (and Hungarian if they are into it too) claims or change of attitude to more pragmatic from Warsaw (and Budapest). Nonetheless if such alliance happened it would be interesting.

rough map of this:
In my honest opinion that map is too far. Poland would probably gain Prussia, Oder-Neisse line on the west and Upper Silesia. Czechs would take Lower Silesia, while Hungary probably only Burgenland.
 
Actually post Vienna border was not really reflecting ethnic borders.
According to 1930 Czechoslovak census some 549 376 Hungarians and 431 545 Czechoslovaks lived on territories granted to Hungary.
Post Little war eastern border added majority Slovak and Ruthenian territories with almost no single Hungarian living there.

The hungarian figures are 86,5% of the population of the territory returned to Hungary was hungarian - without Carpathia of course. Lets agree we are using different books instead going in to a pointless argument about this.

Well as to investigate role of Slovakia - Tiso was hanged for treason, his part on aggressive war against Poland and USSR and other crimes.
Also Slovaks had % more volunteers in Czechoslovak army abroad then was their % on Czechoslovak population (from some 50% in France to around 20% for most part of war to over 80% in 1944) and actually Slovak politician Osusky was man who kickstarted Czechoslovak Government in Exile.

Also there was this little thing called Slovak National Uprising, one of largest Uprisings against Germans in Europe which despite being defeated lasted 2 months.
Another thing, Munich was proclaimed null and void by Allies. Vienna award was consequence of Munich so end up same way.

And I am not saying border post WWII couldn’t be more just for Hungarians.

Im saying that Slovakia as a victim is a bit more controversial as Tiso and slovakian independence had support.

Problem in my opinion post WWI was Hungarians feeling lost of whole Slovakia was not just and basically they were not willing to accept loss of Upper land as a whole, not just ethnically Hungarian territories.

It would be interesting though if Poland and Hungary have seen possibilities of things going wrong for them after 1938 and offered Czechoslovakia support for straightening borders along ethnic lines based on plebiscite overviewed by international observers.
However this was not possible as Hungary jumped on German wagon which they saw as only opportunity to clear their territorial claims to basically all of their neighbors.
And to be honest I am not sure how would be such offer viewed in Prague. Benes was asked for years by Czechoslovak Generals to straighten relations with Poland. Did he managed to do something about it?

For Slovakia borders post Vienna were economically survive able - Slovakia was able to feed itself basically to summer 1944 and even export. More just border would be even easier. Especially if deal was accompanied with right to pass for trains without hold ups.

You are right that a lot of Hungarians wanted everything back - but far from all.
For polish-czech relatins: the problem was Teschen. There was actual fighting for the polish majority teritory after WWI which the czech have won as the poles were buzy fighting the red army. This however poisoned czech-polish relations in the interwar period. Poland did force Czechslovakia to cede the region after Munich.
 
The hungarian figures are 86,5% of the population of the territory returned to Hungary was hungarian - without Carpathia of course. Lets agree we are using different books instead going in to a pointless argument about this.
Actually I found also Czechoslovak data from 1938 which are more favorable to Hungary but still far away from 86.5 %. Though Czechoslovaks were allowing “Jewish” nationality. And as most Jews at Felvidek had Hungarian as first language they were counted as Hungarians by Budapest. ;)

Im saying that Slovakia as a victim is a bit more controversial as Tiso and slovakian independence had support.
Of course they had some support. They were constantly getting around 30% in Czechoslovak election. There was threat real or not Slovakia being annexed by Hungary and I guess that’s brought some short term support too. Autonomy and Independence was political target of many Slovak politicians and even Osusky who was pro Czechoslovak had much different view on post war Czechoslovakia then Benes.


Slovakia as well as Czechs were victims of Munich. Before Munich even majority of Hlinka’s party more or less supported Prague. Post Munich and post Vienna everything went down the drain. Political reality was French and British abandoned central European area and Prague was not able to defend it’s own interests, nor interests of Slovaks.

Still it was no clear for some time even in Czechoslovak government in exile how they will deal with Slovak problem and harsh methods were proposed.
Reality is that Slovak national Uprising put Benes in front of different situation.

Reality also is Slovakia was always part of Czechoslovakia through whole war in eyes of Czechoslovak government in exile as well as Allies. Tiso and few others were hanged for treason and collaboration, some got long term prison terms. So ring leaders ;) were dealt with.

Many managed to “correct” their former mistakes by participating on Uprising.
And again Uprising itself had huge impact on how Slovakia was seen and presented post war. After all Slovaks resisted Germans longer then Benes in 1938.

Post war there were also sentences for “treason on Uprising”!

You are right that a lot of Hungarians wanted everything back - but far from all.
For polish-czech relatins: the problem was Teschen. There was actual fighting for the polish majority teritory after WWI which the czech have won as the poles were buzy fighting the red army. This however poisoned czech-polish relations in the interwar period. Poland did force Czechslovakia to cede the region after Munich.
I am aware of that. However Im Czech eyes Poles were escalating there. And after all Czechs were at that time also distracted by liberation of Slovakia.
 
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