AHC/WI/POD: Successful unified Indo-Greek Empire and settlement.

Albert.Nik

Banned
What could be a POD when Indo-Greeks establish settlements successfully across the territories they controlled(Punjab,Afghanistan and other parts of North India) and create a significant change in demographics,language and religion and create an unified and a strong Indian Empire and eventually expand further in? The religion I think would be a form of Graeco-Buddhism or Graeco-Vedism. The language would be mostly Greek,Iranian and various Indo-Aryan languages spoken and Indo-Aryan Sanskrit mainly used for religious purposes. How would culture look like? How would this empire later be met with by the later Western Powers and Islamic empires? How would Persian Empire react to a Greek Empire on both sides? How would Romans and Byzantines see this? You can make the demographics around 50-60% Greek and other 40% would contain the surviving Central Asian and Frontier Indian Indo-Aryans,Tocharians and Indo-Iranians who in OTL couldn't make it past the Turks and other invaders when there was no strong empires and also Dravidian speakers. Speakers, mind you.
Next,will discuss Neolithic Fertile Crescenters (IVC),Scythians,Parthians and Seleucids also in separate threads for each. Tocharians has been done already.
 
I wrote out a whole mock mini-TL on a surviving Indo-Greek state, but here are some general thoughts/guesses:

-The easiest PoD would seem to be a strong and widely supported single successor to Menandros I Soter, the guy that conquered the Indo-Greek state into existence and supposedly got as far as besieging Pataliputra. The coinage evidence suggests his succession was unstable or unclear, leading to a gradual division and decline of the Greek hegemony.

-Culturally, the spread of the Greek language is certainly plausible, as even in the last days of Greek statelets they still stamped coins in the language. However, this state will inevitably become mostly “Indian” eventually; the cultural gravity is too strong and the Greek heartland much too far away. Buddhism with a Greek tinge will be heavily supported and possibly even exported as the Kushans did IOTL.

-The greatest threat to the Indo-Greeks is the northwestern invaders, just as it has always been for that part of India. A PoD for them to survive should IMO include something to butterfly away the gradual Yuezhi incursions—my thought in my TL was a convenient Seleucid civil war at just the right time to lure them westward into Persia. Later invaders will be a serious existential issue, though.

-Long-term the whole world is changed, so there may not even be a Roman Empire ITTL—it could stay a Republic, or else collapse early. As for cultural contact with fellow Greeks, if the Seleukids fall to an invasion that’ll see the Indo-Greeks become isolated very quickly. It would be fascinating to see European Greeks rediscover their Indian brethren centuries later...
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
It was the Eastern Iranian Scythians who invaded when Indo-Greeks were around. Yuezhi were Tocharians with probably some Scythian admixture. They are somewhat like Germanic or Celtic people of the East. They just created an empire after migrating into the territory rather than invading it like the Scythians did.
Odoacer,the Visigoths and Kujula Kadphises would have more in common than all three being Centum speaking IE people.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
But why would the Roman Empire or the Germanic and Celtic empires subsequently be affected? They were in Europe while this would be in the East.
 
But why would the Roman Empire or the Germanic and Celtic empires subsequently be affected? They were in Europe while this would be in the East.

Butterflies will make the whole world different after a century or two. For instance, if the Scythians (not Yuezhi, you’re right about that) don’t invade India but rather Persia, that butterflies the Parthian Empire out of existence. That has major consequences for the Mideast—it would change the nature of what were called the Parthian Wars IOTL, which would then have effects on Roman politics.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Butterflies will make the whole world different after a century or two. For instance, if the Scythians (not Yuezhi, you’re right about that) don’t invade India but rather Persia, that butterflies the Parthian Empire out of existence. That has major consequences for the Mideast—it would change the nature of what were called the Parthian Wars IOTL, which would then have effects on Roman politics.
That would be interesting. As Scythians or Tocharians would conquer and settle the Persian Empire,the other power,Roman Empire would be immediately on a defensive mode. The Tocharian or Scythian Empire may never expand to Roman territories of Levant and Anatolia and instead be content with what they have(Persia and Parts of Central Asia). But then the unified Greek empire towards the East in India might flex their muscles towards them and try conquering some of their territories and if successful,the Greek Empire and Roman Empire would share a border. What happens after this can be in many timelines.
 
That would be interesting. As Scythians or Tocharians would conquer and settle the Persian Empire,the other power,Roman Empire would be immediately on a defensive mode. The Tocharian or Scythian Empire may never expand to Roman territories of Levant and Anatolia and instead be content with what they have(Persia and Parts of Central Asia). But then the unified Greek empire towards the East in India might flex their muscles towards them and try conquering some of their territories and if successful,the Greek Empire and Roman Empire would share a border. What happens after this can be in many timelines.

A hypothetical Tocharian/Scythian Empire in Persia and Mesopotamia will probably be less stable than the Parthians were IOTL, being foreign invaders rather than a local Persian dynasty. They may not get as far as the Parthians, either—could we see a rump Seleucids in Mesopotamia?

The Romans may get a bit farther into Mesopotamia and Armenia if Persia’s weaker, but I would doubt that they’d border the Indo-Greeks. The latter nation will, even if wanked, have a hard time expanding into Persia given their Indian core territories and need to defend them from Indian rivals.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
A hypothetical Tocharian/Scythian Empire in Persia and Mesopotamia will probably be less stable than the Parthians were IOTL, being foreign invaders rather than a local Persian dynasty. They may not get as far as the Parthians, either—could we see a rump Seleucids in Mesopotamia?

The Romans may get a bit farther into Mesopotamia and Armenia if Persia’s weaker, but I would doubt that they’d border the Indo-Greeks. The latter nation will, even if wanked, have a hard time expanding into Persia given their Indian core territories and need to defend them from Indian rivals.
You are forgetting that both Tocharian or Scythian rulers will bring huge settlers and eventually bring them to a significant population and majority if given a chance. It would be the case if India and Central Asia were held completely by Scythian/Kushan(Tocharian)/Indo-Greek empire as well which they did for a some time. That's why you see Blonde haired Italians more and more as you go towards the Cisalpine Gaul region in the Northern Italy and the frequency increases as you go from Sicily to Cisalpine Gaul in Italy and also Southern France,Spain(Basque is the purest here AFAIK),Portugal,Balkans as those who came in(Germanic and Slavic peoples) settled there in large numbers. If you would have a strong successful Kushan(Tocharian) Empire in India and Central Asia,I think you would see majority of Indians(which would now stretch into Central Asia as well) Red/Ginger/Blonde hair with Green/Blue eyes. Today,many Indians who carry the Kushan/Scythian/Indo-Iranian DNA more have light/mid brown hair and hazel eyes. It is more in the erstwhile Kushan strongholds(Punjab,Kashmir,Himachal in India and KPK in Pakistan) today but Kushans weren't very successful in India and Central Asia and there are many in Central Asia with traces like that. So even the ones conquering Persia and Middle East would bring their settlers. But Romans,as you said,would expand to Mesopotamia and Armenia taking the opportunity pushing the Tocharians/Scythians to form the OTL Kushan Empire borders in India itself. And these settlers and emperors wouldn't leave India which has very good resources to settle even if the Romans stay calm.
 
I'm not sure your view of ethnicity is entirely congruent with the current scientific one. At least as far as I understand what you're saying.
For example why are blonde hair Italians somehow Scythian?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I'm not sure your view of ethnicity is entirely congruent with the current scientific one. At least as far as I understand what you're saying.
For example why are blonde hair Italians somehow Scythian?
Blonde Italians are a descendents of Germanic settlers mostly though Scythian presence existed in Europe,it was remote. I used it as an analogy to the East. If Tocharian and Scythian empires and settlements were successful in India and Persia,you could see Blonde/ginger and blue/green eyed people as a majority of population in those regions they settle.
 
Blonde Italians are a descendents of Germanic settlers mostly though Scythian presence existed in Europe,it was remote. I used it as an analogy to the East. If Tocharian and Scythian empires and settlements were successful in India and Persia,you could see Blonde/ginger and blue/green eyed people as a majority of population in those regions they settle.
But the Scythians aren't the source of the phaeomelanist genes. (And that's not even getting into differentiation of "blonde" from diluted eu- and phaeomelanin)
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
But of course,Scythians,Germanic peoples,Balto-Slavic peoples and Tocharians were genetically quite identical to each other through common origins and admixtures.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
But the Scythians aren't the source of the phaeomelanist genes.
I don't quite understand this. Scythians were Indo-European Eastern Iranian peoples who were widespread in the Eurasian steppes and Central Asia. Small number of them did penetrate into Europe as well but being identical and small in number to leave any linguistic mark. Significant genetic mark has been left in India but. You see more and more White looking Indians as you move towards the Northwest. So did Kushan Tocharians. All these came into India from the Northwest like how Germanic peoples entered from the North in Italy. But both these empires couldn't consolidate their Empires in India. Had they,you cloud see most Indians and Central Asians identical to Europeans.
 
All these peoples are Indo-European peoples who originate in the Eurasian Steppes. So,of course they have a common origin.
Aren't you claiming that the Scythians are the source of red/yellow hair in Northern Europeans?
Furthermore you also seem to be claiming that they are also genetically identical to Germanics, BaltoSlavics, and Tocharians - notwithstanding that these are cultural/linguistic rather than genetic terms - which would contradict your first point.
As to a shared origin wouldn't this by definition include the Celts, Italics, and Hittites too?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I never claimed Scythians,Tocharians and other Indo-Iranians are the source of Blonde hair in Europe. Scythians,Tocharians and Indo-Iranians are the source of lighter and sharper features in Indians,Central Asians and Iranians. The only European nation with significant Scythian DNA is Ukraine. Ossetians are the last surviving Scythian descendants.
 
I never claimed Scythians,Tocharians and other Indo-Iranians are the source of Blonde hair in Europe. Scythians,Tocharians and Indo-Iranians are the source of lighter and sharper features in Indians,Central Asians and Iranians. The only European nation with significant Scythian DNA is Ukraine. Ossetians are the last surviving Scythian descendants.
Then what was your point about blonde Italians?
And are you now withdrawing your claim on the genetic identicalness of Scythians, Baltic, Germanic, and Slavic Europeans?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Then what was your point about blonde Italians?
And are you now withdrawing your claim on the genetic identicalness of Scythians, Baltic, Germanic, and Slavic Europeans?
The said people were and are indeed identical to each other with very small differences,of course. The Blonde Italians was an analogy of a case in which there would be successful settlements of Tocharians and Scythians that could have happened in India and Central Asia with a more successful Kushan or a Scythian Empire like how Germanic settlers caused the blonde population in Northern Italy. It was an analogy. And yes,all these groups were mostly identical by look but linguistically different.
 
The said people were and are indeed identical to each other with very small differences,of course.
Sources on this.
The Blonde Italians was an analogy of a case in which there would be successful settlements of Tocharians and Scythians that could have happened in India and Central Asia with a more successful Kushan or a Scythian Empire like how Germanic settlers caused the blonde population in Northern Italy. It was an analogy.
Not a great analogy if your point was they would retain their language.
And yes,all these groups were mostly identical by look but linguistically different.
On what basis did they look alike?
 
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