AHC/WI : No Carthagian Empire

1) What would be needed to get rid of Punic hegemony on North Africa and Western Mediterranean basin?
Phoenican-Libyan cities could still be a thing, but I'm looking of a Great Greece-like situation with different polities instead of an hegmon.

2) What would be the consequences?
Probably good news for what matters to greek states in Sicily, Italy or Gaul; but how so?
Would Iberic peninsula drastically changed, with a more greek and more indigenous presence on Levante and on the south?

Without Carthage as a power, how good Rome will fare without the original alliance (or at least diplomatical agreement)?
 
What would be your PoD? :)

Because you know, at some point there was no carthagian influence anymore
 
1) What would be needed to get rid of Punic hegemony on North Africa and Western Mediterranean basin?
Phoenican-Libyan cities could still be a thing, but I'm looking of a Great Greece-like situation with different polities instead of an hegmon.

2) What would be the consequences?
Probably good news for what matters to greek states in Sicily, Italy or Gaul; but how so?
Would Iberic peninsula drastically changed, with a more greek and more indigenous presence on Levante and on the south?

Without Carthage as a power, how good Rome will fare without the original alliance (or at least diplomatical agreement)?

I think Carthage was able to support an empire based largely on its navy (like Athens) this allowed more far flung areas to remain closely in contact with the home city.
Last year I was doing some historiography on the Roman economy, and it is largely accepted that Rome subsumed the trading networks already operated by the Carthaginians into their own.

So firstly a distuption to their sea power either through a misadventure against another power (like Athens) or being in the wrong place at the wrong time and storms hitting.
After having their sea power diminished the colony cities would need to protect themselves. Which would no doubt lead to seperate identities forming. Which would lead to independence. (Assuming the Carthaginian fleets isnn't rebuilt stupidly fast, which could be possible)

As for effects, without a large trade network to set the precedent (or for them to continue to operate), the Romans may be slower to set one up efficiently. That said smaller, weaker states would no doubt be chomped up by the Romans far quicker.
The Romans would likely continue to expand, and the lack of any serious competition in the west mean it will be quicker than otl, which may set their eyes northwards or to the east earlier. Though without the punic wars the state of their navy may need improving at this point. (Going east obviously - don't need a navy for the gauls)
 
Someone is quite on a teasing mood today : No Carthagian Empire, as in never appearing in first place.

Ok so if never in the first place, you probably need more local competition so that Carthage cannot build up it's naval power. Perhaps another few Phonecian cities in the area who are all set on dominating the others. There would need to be a focus on an army in such a situation, less love for the navy and more people dying in wars means no excess population to seed new colonies.

As I believe that Carthage was originally set up as a trading port, the above scenario is harder to achieve.

They had an empire because they wanted to expand their trade. (At least that appears the reason to me)
 
I remember from the "History of Rome" podcast that the raiders of the hinterland were quite a problem.

Could it be possible that the Phoenician try to get there, set up a colony but get wiped out a couple times?

They are not warriors, they are merchants. They see it's just not worth the cost and stay in Sicilia with a much smaller implantation in North Africa.




It's not completely subject related but I'd like to see the implication on Roman warfaring. Reminds me of that Dr Who episode where the Dalek tell the Doctor they became stronger because of him, because they were fighting him.

Seems to me the Carthaginian really forced the romans to step up their game. Would the Roman Empire be what it was without the Carthaginians?
 
IIRC, Carthagians seems to had a relative good relation with direct inlanders, at least before their defeat in Sicily made then tightening their grasp and tributes, and it still resulted on a metissed culture between punic, hellenistic and libyan elements.
 
Well maybe that's your PoD?

Instead of getting good relations from the start, one of the governors of the city, in the early years, offends one of the chiefs of the hinterland.

The chief is arogant, he's an upstart looking for a bit of glory or just doesn't really care and just thinks about extracting a big profit from tchem.

An example that springs to mind for cultural contacts ruined by arrogance is Christian proselytism in Japan which led to the expulsion of all Europeans for 400 years.

History and daily life is full of these kind of people. Someone a bit too rude at the start, the locals take the piss and storm the place. Phenician decide it's just not worth it.
 
But even without Carthage itself, what would prefent the appearance of another but similar punic hegemony in Western Mediterranean basin? Unless you mean that every colony fails on the same reasons?
 
Seems to me the Carthaginian really forced the romans to step up their game. Would the Roman Empire be what it was without the Carthaginians?

Short answer: no. Long answer: noooooooooooooooo.

But even without Carthage itself, what would prefent (sic) the appearance of another but similar punic hegemony in Western Mediterranean basin? Unless you mean that every colony fails on the same reasons?

That's exactly the point. Carthage was a Phoenician colony at first---if not Carthage, then certainly another would have taken its place. The Phoenicians were traders and colonizers, and while they probably weren't the first to do so, they were the first to enjoy the kind of success in their efforts as they did. It's been mentioned, but in order to prevent the rise of Carthage something -would- have to happen to prevent the Phoenician colonization efforts---something to prevent them or otherwise discourage them from settling; still trading, perhaps, but not settling permanently.
 
If there is no Carthaginian Empire, then there will be an Utican Empire or any up and coming Phoenician City State. The cities around the coast of modern Tunis were all very wealthy and monopolisation of trade is not something you can just wave away. Someone is going to dominate.

Carthage was just in the perfect place to monopolise trade. It was built where the East meets the Western Med. It could charge tariffs to anyone passing through its waters or harbouring in its ports.

Though if you do want to wave it away. You may end up with some remarkably darker history. People tend to glaze over the inhumaity of the Greeks of Sicily. The city of Motya in Punic Sicily was utterly destroyed so thoroughly during the wars of Syracuse and Carthage that it was never rebuilt and no one wanted to live on the island.

Instead of a Carthaginian Trade Republic, you would have nasty short lived Tyrants ruling through utter brutality on Sicily, the likes of Agathocles of Syracuse and Phallaris of Akragas. Without pressure from Carthage, Agathocles especially, they would dominate the central Mediterranean. Dont read how Agathocles responded to cities that did not pay their protection money if you have a weak stomach.

After all when Carthage was razed by the Romans it is no coincidence that one of the first places Scipio Aemilainus visited was Syracuse. He left them the Brazen Bull that had been taken from Carthages vaults after they looted it from Akragas. The inhuman torture device used by one of the Greek rulers of Sicily. He said when it was erected in the Town centre,

"If ever you should complain of the Tyranny of the Romans, look upon this and remember how your own leaders treated you."

So you would have some fairly nasty replacements for Carthage if there are no major successors, Pyrrhus will not give up his invasion of Italy to go save the Sicily from Carthage, Rome will not get the push to spread beyond Italy by the idiocy of the Mamertines in Sicily, etc. There are many butterflies. Those are just some of the more obvious ones.
 
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