AHC/WI: Native Americans get llamas

[leopard9]

Let's say trade networks are more developed between North and South America and llamas are traded into the Mesoamerican civilization complex, meaning both the Maya and Aztec get them. What's the earliest they can get llamas? How does this affect how the Spanish Conquest goes?

Does a llama craze sweep Europe once the conqustiadors see how adorable and tame they are?

 

[Wolttaire]

That would be pretty hard it would just be easier if that before humans came lamas made it to the Rockies and then survived there and humans didn’t kill them maybe in Pacific Northwest

 

[Lampiao]

Llamas are woolly camels native to the Andes, to go from there to somewhere else, the poor animals would need to cross tropical rainforest and/or deserts. Just think of crossing the rainforest with a poncho...

 

[Lenwe]

Llamas are woolly camels native to the Andes, to go from there to somewhere else, the poor animals would need to cross tropical rainforest and/or deserts. Just think of crossing the rainforest with a poncho...

Llamas Live in Ecuador, in the middle of the tropical Ecuadorian rainforest ,since Before the Civilization, without problems, they live in the Middle of the Atacama Dessert, 50 times more arid than the Dead valley, without problems.

Is more a problem of Why move the llamas from Ecuador-Peru to Mexico-USA, than a How problem.

 

[Lenwe]

Let's say trade networks are more developed between North and South America and llamas are traded into the Mesoamerican civilization complex, meaning both the Maya and Aztec get them. What's the earliest they can get llamas? How does this affect how the Spanish Conquest goes?

Does a llama craze sweep Europe once the conqustiadors see how adorable and tame they are?

Taking in Account that the Spanish Conquerors Try their best to completely eradicated the Llamas, as domestic animal, and Replace them with Sheep, I doubt it, the only reason the fail is because the Sheep aren´t as adaptable as the llamas are

 

[leopard9]

Taking in Account that the Spanish Conquerors Try their best to completely eradicated the Llamas, as domestic animal, and Replace them with Sheep, I doubt it, the only reason the fail is because the Sheep aren´t as adaptable as the llamas are

Why on Earth did they try to do that? Those things are adorable and perfectly adapted to the mountainous terrain.

 

[Tangles up aubergine]

Let's say trade networks are more developed between North and South America and llamas are traded into the Mesoamerican civilization complex, meaning both the Maya and Aztec get them. What's the earliest they can get llamas? How does this affect how the Spanish Conquest goes?

Does a llama craze sweep Europe once the conqustiadors see how adorable and tame they are?

If the conquistadors were to allow the llamas to stay, which they were against OTL, then the llama would be unlikely to be brought to Europe in large numbers. Sheep are already widespread and don't need to be brought across an ocean to be used freely. More likely that llama fleece is used as a luxury good with small farms being set up by the wealthy, but llamas become something of a symbol for the rich and famous. Sheep would remain the most widespread for a long time, if llamas ever managed to overtake sheep production at all.

 

[Lenwe]

Why on Earth did they try to do that? Those things are adorable and perfectly adapted to the mountainous terrain.

Dunno, there Is The theory that the Spanish didn't like The Llama meat and prefered The sheep meat, and so they forced The Sheep breeding in Perú, there Is a reason most of the Surviving Llama breeding communities live on Marginal lands, and The best and more productividad valey áre full of European Sheeps. Even when The Llamas áre económical more convenient as the Llama wool command better prices in The global Market

As aside point a Llama wool sweater Is Miles ahead better than a sheep wool one

Correction an Alpaca wool sweater is The Nice one.

 

[Richard V]

Llamas can pull a lot more on travois than dogs. Fabric becomes much more widespread. Availability of raised meat would lead to less dependence on hunting gathering. Possibly the idea of property ownership is more developed. Your status might depend on how many llamas you own for example.

 

[leopard9]

Llamas can pull a lot more on travois than dogs. Fabric becomes much more widespread. Availability of raised meat would lead to less dependence on hunting gathering. Possibly the idea of property ownership is more developed. Your status might depend on how many llamas you own for example.

On that thought, look at how Africans incorporated cattle into their social systems. There were divisions in ethnicity in part based on whether a people focused solely on raising cows or whether they planted crops. Cattle stimulated much larger populations due to giving people another source of meat and milk and they even worked their way into mythologies as the companions of gods. In a ton of African societies, the ownership of cattle broke the previously more egalitarian tribal society of local communities and became the basis for the wealth of "big men".

The only question is how do they get to Mesoamerica before the Spanish?

 

[Richard V]

On that thought, look at how Africans incorporated cattle into their social systems. There were divisions in ethnicity in part based on whether a people focused solely on raising cows or whether they planted crops. Cattle stimulated much larger populations due to giving people another source of meat and milk and they even worked their way into mythologies as the companions of gods. In a ton of African societies, the ownership of cattle broke the previously more egalitarian tribal society of local communities and became the basis for the wealth of "big men".

The only question is how do they get to Mesoamerica before the Spanish?

Yes I was thinking of African cattle ownership as well.

The most probable way to MesoAmerica would involve coastal trade, possibly more advanced maritime package. A missed great opportunity was not llamas spreading to North America, but that they didn’t even spread out of the Andeas. They were regrettably absent from the plains of South America, along with potatoes.

 

[Lenwe]

Yes I was thinking of African cattle ownership as well.

The most probable way to MesoAmerica would involve coastal trade, possibly more advanced maritime package. A missed great opportunity was not llamas spreading to North America, but that they didn’t even spread out of the Andeas. They were regrettably absent from the plains of South America, along with potatoes.

They áre part of the south american plains, well not The Llamas The Guanacos áre.

Their absence in uruguay could be because The animal áre bad swimmer, and The Uruguay river Is a migthy river

 

[Wolttaire]

they beleive it or not orginated in plains of North America plain and migrated down in the great America interchange just have them stay in North America and they can still go to South America to then we have them therw

 

[Richard V]

They áre part of the south american plains, well not The Llamas The Guanacos áre.

Their absence in uruguay could be because The animal áre bad swimmer, and The Uruguay river Is a migthy river

Yeah but Guanacos were not domesticated. They were only useful as game meat.

 

[Lenwe]

Yeah but Guanacos were not domesticated. They were only useful as game meat.

They were, The domesticated Guanaco Is called Llama. But Even if we are going to splits hairs,ja, The Chilhueque was a Guanaco Domesticated
Here a paper on The genétic Origin of the Chilhueque that point it's a Lost Guanaco domesticate
https://www.researchgate.net/public...f_the_chilihueques_from_Isla_Mocha_Chile_OPEN
Is from The 2017 si Is prety recent research

 

[Richard V]

They were The domesticated Guanaco Is called Llama. But Even if we are going yo splits hairs,ja, The Chilhueque was a Guanaco Domesticated
Here a paper on The genétic Origin of the Chilhueque that point it's a Lost Guanaco domesticate
https://www.researchgate.net/public...f_the_chilihueques_from_Isla_Mocha_Chile_OPEN
Is from The 2017 si Is prety recent research

Okay, but there is no indication domesticated varieties spread outside of the Andeas and the west coast of South America.

 

[Kaze]

Llamas might be good for food and clothing.
But as a military cavalry, they are not suited for it - they are not suited to run at a gallop at a long time. Their bodies carrying a man with armor and weapons for a long time might be unsuitable for the llama - so no lancers / knights, Mongol-style archers, etc.
In a military sense - the Inca only used them to transport arrows, food and supplies, and corpses from the battlefield.

 

[Tangles up aubergine]

Would the food supply gained from llamas have a profound effect on the Mayan or Aztec population?

Llamas might be good for food and clothing.
But as a military cavalry, they are not suited for it - they are not suited to run at a gallop at a long time. Their bodies carrying a man with armor and weapons for a long time might be unsuitable for the llama - so no lancers / knights, Mongol-style archers, etc.
In a military sense - the Inca only used them to transport arrows, food and supplies, and corpses from the battlefield.

Supplies can be transported easier with beasts of burden, so that will help in any war effort, but they aren't suitable for cavalry. Maybe they could be used for increasing the mobility of infantry by carrying them to the front in carts, but little beyond supply and transport.

 

[Richard V]

Would the food supply gained from llamas have a profound effect on the Mayan or Aztec population?

An increase in meat consumption, but hard to say how much. It could help with recovery from disease. Eating high quality food is an important part of convalescence.

Supplies can be transported easier with beasts of burden, so that will help in any war effort, but they aren't suitable for cavalry. Maybe they could be used for increasing the mobility of infantry by carrying them to the front in carts, but little beyond supply and transport.

The largest labor profession in the Aztec Empire was the loadcarriers. With the llama taking over a huge number of men would be freed up to do other things. A larger number of soldiers for example.

 

[Tangles up aubergine]

An increase in meat consumption, but hard to say how much. It could help with recovery from disease. Eating high quality food is an important part of convalescence.

I didn't even think of that. That also brings to mind how many people would benefit from the fleece keeping them warm and dry at night. Or even simply the added food supplies in lean times of dried meat and cheese.

The largest labor profession in the Aztec Empire was the loadcarriers. With the llama taking over a huge number of men would be freed up to do other things. A larger number of soldiers for example.

I also didn't know this... Of course, with larger loads being delivered, possibly on carts and wagons, roads would likely be improved greatly. If they are sufficiently built up, it could lead to a larger empire, spanning further and holding more people.