AHC/WI: National Bolshevist Germany

[Ellis MacVey]

Okay, so this thread has two parts: the first part is a challenge - make Germany NazBol, although the specific type of NazBol may vary. National Bolshevism is commonly regarded as a bizarre, unholy love child of Communism and Fascism, and it sort of is, but there's a surprising amount of diversity of thought within National Bolshevist movements.

It's worth noting that Strasserism and National Bolshevism are two different things, and Strasserist Germany is not National Bolshevist Germany.

The second part explores the consequences of a National Bolshevist Germany: Germany's NazBol, now what? What happens next? How does the world react? What's Germany's relationship with Russia in this timeline like? How is its relationship with extremely racist corporate executives in America changed? What do Britain, France, and Italy think of Germany TTL?

Edit/Post-Script: It's worth noting that Karl Otto Paetel, a prominent German National Bolshevist in the 1920s, was Jewish. I suspect that NazBol Germany would look more like Valkist Germany from Führerreich: Legacy of the Great War than it would look like Strasserist Germany.

 

[Richard Osborne]

Horseshoe theory is now undeniable. If these guys commit a holocaust then the conspiracy a jewish controlled communism gets a good kick in the nuts.

 

[Aloha]

I actually once had a somewhat similar idea to this. This idea would revolve around Nazism being an extremely aggressive and violent form of communism instead. While the Nazi Party would be officially communist, it also combines views of communism with the new fascist ideology, believing that both can be compatible due to a shared opposition towards capitalism and democracy. Some Germans at the time were interested in finding a "third way" between the Communist Party of Germany and the Nazi Party, such an idea wasn't too alien. They admire the USSR (especially Stalin for preventing a "Jewish-controlled communism") for defeating the capitalists (e.g. United Kingdom and USA) and taking power as a large, anti-capitalist communist bloc, while fascism would be admired due to its aggression and fighter's spirit, believing that such traits would be good for plans of spreading communism elsewhere. Jews would be seen as traitors of the state, collaborators of capitalism, and would most likely blamed for the Treaty of Versailles, and democracies such as the United States and United Kingdom would be seen as "feeble" due to being corrupted by Jewish influence. Other minorities would probably be targeted too if they're seen as collaborators of the Jews. It might also be interesting to see how exactly eugenics works here, like maybe white Germans, Russians, Italians and Spaniards are seen as the ideal examples of what a "worker" should look like while minorities are deemed too feeble and weak for that position (somewhat like the "New Soviet Man"). The Lebensraum would instead be communist, not focusing on the Soviets but instead on the capitalist nations, and maybe they try to set an agreement between fascist and communist states for certain territories to be divided. In this different universe, National Socialism is now considered a type of communism.

EDIT: Man, was I really this fucking stupid back in the day? My old posts make me cringe so much.

 

[Aloha]

Thinking more realistically and assuming that Germany officially identifies itself as communist but fascist at the same time, it's really difficult to say. It's not as clear-cut as Strasserism, which is a worker-based form of Nazism that is hostile to Jews from an anti-capitalist basis rather than a racial, ethnic, cultural or religious perspective. I could perhaps see something similar to this happening, but a key difference between the two is that National Bolshevism is pro-Soviet/Bolshevik while Strasserism is still anti-Soviet/Bolshevik. Who do they support in the Spanish Civil War, the Republicans or Nationalists? Who do they support in the Chinese Civil War, Mao or Kai-shek? They wouldn't join the Allies for sure, so there's a decision between them to make to either join the Axis or Comintern. The problem with this idea lies within the fact that at least one ideology will have to be dominant over the other at some point, thereby defeating the purpose of it following National Bolshevism to begin with. Britain and France would oppose it definitely, but Italy and USSR are a bit harder. Assuming Germany strengthens relations between itself and them, and the Allies see both communism and fascism as a threat, then an alliance might be able to work out? I think Italy and USSR would be more confused than anything, especially the latter. I don't think the USSR would take kindly to its ideology being associated with another ideology they oppose; after all, they had to fight a civil war over this, but they still allied with capitalists in WW2 and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a thing, so who knows?

Idea for POD: Spartacist Rebellion ends up being more successful than in OTL, civil war happens between communists and fascists where the Soviets back the former. Somehow the war ends in a stalemate, resulting in a ceasefire between the two and somehow both ideologies intertwine.

Assuming a WW2 happens where alliances must be made, I'm thinking maybe:

"Axis":
-Germany
-USSR
-Italy
-China
-Spain(?)

Allies:
-UK
-USA
-France
-Japan

 

[Kaiser Frank]

Have a NazBol take over the Bavarian Socialist Republic, then have it be more successful than otl. This leads to the French having to intervene to restore order. Have the French completely botch the invasion, every German joining in to shoot some French. This would make them seem like defenders of Germany instead of Rebellious rabble. Have them surrender to Germany so they don't tarnish the "defenders of Germany" reputation. This will massivly increase the popularity as they drove out a hated enemy (the French), and confirmed the idea that "we would have won if the Government did not betray us". This would attract some important figures to the movement and give it legitimacy, allowing it to take over Germany later.

 

[RiverDelta]

Have a NazBol take over the Bavarian Socialist Republic, then have it be more successful than otl. This leads to the French having to intervene to restore order. Have the French completely botch the invasion, every German joining in to shoot some French. This would make them seem like defenders of Germany instead of Rebellious rabble. Have them surrender to Germany so they don't tarnish the "defenders of Germany" reputation. This will massivly increase the popularity as they drove out a hated enemy (the French), and confirmed the idea that "we would have won if the Government did not betray us". This would attract some important figures to the movement and give it legitimacy, allowing it to take over Germany later.

Were there NazBols in the Bavarian Soviet Republic?

 

[Kaiser Frank]

Were there NazBols in the Bavarian Soviet Republic?

Not sure, this was just a way of getting the NazBols legitimacy and support that they would need to even have a chance of taking over. (They need to win over the Communists and Fascists, this way they do as they are the most "successful")

 

[BigBlueBox]

If the Soviet Union and its puppet states realized that their centrally planned economies were headed off a cliff and only reforms to a market-based system could save them, then they would probably ramp up nationalist propaganda and policies even more to compensate for their de facto abandonment of communism. There you have it: a NazBol GDR under state capitalism with limited private enterprise.