AHC/WI: More United Indo-Iranian peoples

Albert.Nik

Banned
Indo-Iranians were an Indo-European ethnicity speaking Indo-Iranian language on the Satem side along with Balto-Slavic that was born in the Steppes and Transoxania and whose descendants dominate large parts of South Asia and Middle East but got wiped out from the Central Asia in repeated invasions. In this timeline,the Indo-Iranian peoples shouldn't quarrel and divide as OTL and instead all the Indo-Iranians are united. In OTL the Indo-Iranian(Iranian ethnicities and all the Indo-Aryan ethnicities also) ethnicities were very disunited. In this timeline,they don't disunite as OTL and instead conquer Northern India,Iran,Central Asia,Middle East(parts),South Caucasus and parts of Anatolia. So what is the best POD for this? Settling and forming good agricultural civilizations in the Central Asia before their split? Or something like that? What would be the effects of this into the Modern World and all the eras between?
 
The only way I see this happening is if some Genghis Khan type figure unites them and the Aryans sweep into Central Asia, Iranian Plateau and the Indus Valley. This would have to be very early, before Iranic tribes start settling and mingling with BMAC civilization.
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Albert.Nik

Banned
The only way I see this happening is if some Genghis Khan type figure unites them and the Aryans sweep into Central Asia, Iranian Plateau and the Indus Valley. This would have to be very early, before Iranic tribes start settling and mingling with BMAC civilization.
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That's interesting! Or maybe even confederation like the Goths or other Germanic tribes or even like the Kievan Rus also could work here.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Sakas and Scythians are one and the same I think. Even Sarmatians were a subset of Scythians is my guess. The biggest Iranic group but extinct in all their dominant lands today..
 
The only way I see this happening is if some Genghis Khan type figure unites them and the Aryans sweep into Central Asia, Iranian Plateau and the Indus Valley. This would have to be very early, before Iranic tribes start settling and mingling with BMAC civilization.
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From what I've read, the ethnogenesis of the Aryans occured in the Andronovo (conquest/assimilation) of BMAC. That would be a good time for a uniter.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
From what I've read, the ethnogenesis of the Aryans occured in the Andronovo (conquest/assimilation) of BMAC. That would be a good time for a uniter.
I don't think you have much evidence speaking for that. There are Indo-Aryan peoples in the Mountain regions who look very Central/Northern European. They are said to descend from the Vedic Gandharva peoples who were Aryans not Iranians. Plus,Indo-Aryans were such a large group that a small interaction with BMAC couldn't have been the only source. So these factors speak against what you have mentioned here.
 
I don't think you have much evidence speaking for that. There are Indo-Aryan peoples in the Mountain regions who look very Central/Northern European. They are said to descend from the Vedic Gandharva peoples who were Aryans not Iranians. Plus,Indo-Aryans were such a large group that a small interaction with BMAC couldn't have been the only source. So these factors speak against what you have mentioned here.
I don't think argument from appearance is important here. I think if anything, the (Indo/irano)-aryans picked up a 'baluchi' component in BMAC, but that wouldn't make them look totally different.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

Furthermore; there's nothing stopping the spread of culture (or migration) back to the steppes from the fusion event. Post-BMAC Indo-Aryans show up as far west as Syria (Mittani).
 
From what I've read, the ethnogenesis of the Aryans occured in the Andronovo (conquest/assimilation) of BMAC. That would be a good time for a uniter.

True. I believe archealogist agree that the Sintashta culture is the first instance of THE proto Indo Iranian culture. They developed the horse culture beyond what the Yamnaya (the proto Indo Europeans) created and also engaged in advanced metallurgy. Their products have been found in BMAC, Mesopotamia and Indus Valley civilizations. Its this trade that likely brought them south. One group, the Iranics, heavily mixed with the BMAC civilization, and later moved on to the Iranian plateau. Most modern Iranic speaking populations have about a 95% genetic continuity with this hybridized Iranic/BMAC population. It appears that the Indo Aryans avoided the BMAC civilization entirely and went straight to the Indus Valley civilization. The Iranic nomads that remained on the steppe show about 25% east Asian admixture by the time the classical historians begin writing about them.
 
It appears that the Indo Aryans avoided the BMAC civilization entirely and went straight to the Indus Valley civilization.
Really? The papers I've heard discussed asserted both IndoAryans and IranoAryans picking up Yaz/BMAC genes, words and techniques.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure the Indo Aryan interaction with BMAC was negliglble to non existent.
There was interaction,no doubt. The population of Indo-Iranians was also extremely gigantic compared to BMAC so even if mixing happened,it wouldn't show in significant traces. Not just Aryans,even Iranian and Nuristani fellow Indo-Iranians also would have interaction and genetic component from there if not Tocharians. BMAC was a gateway to all Iranian dominated regions then. Only Scythians and other Eastern Iranian peoples might have lesser interaction that doesn't mean they didn't have. So there could be a "United Kingdom" or Airyaman if the Indo-Aryans too built settlements in the river valleys there and then eventually city states. This could lead to huge united empire that eventually colonizes all the other regions where possible instead of going in as nomadic pastoralists as in OTL. They would be similar to Slavs and Balts of today in terms of Genetic and also being Satem speakers but very much more advanced like Romans or something.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I'll continue on my Iranian Empire timeline in the Pontic steppe and the then Achaemenid territories like Bukhara and Samarkand along with Khwarazem.
I want some data now.
*What exactly could be done to mitigate the harsh climates of the Steppes?
*How can Food production be overcome as there is the problem that it would be very cold for quite some amount of time?
*Where exactly all did the Scythians live in?
*Where did all the Finno-Ugric peoples live then and what was their interaction between these peoples?
*Who were the Cimmerians?
*How was Finno-Ugric societies like back then?
Religion of the Finno-Ugric peoples?
What was the nature of the first converts to Zoroastrianism?
Detailed explanation of the Steppe Iranian societies like how they ruled,behaved,farmed,did for a living,built houses,etc.
I need these inputs first before making a timeline of the Steppe settled empire of the Iranian peoples. Iranian peoples dominated the Steppes from 2000 BCE to around the time of the Mongols/Huns invasions or a little before. So we want a POD as old as possible for a strong,defensive and settled empire.
 
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I think it more realistic to just include Indo-Iranians around today and see how they could be more unified. We certainly could have seen a Greater Persian from Mesopotamia to the Indus and north to the Aral Sea. It could well have become a superpower. As for the Scythians and kin, I think if they were to survive they would end up in Europe most likely as a distinct entity. I believe that because of the eastern lexicography of the Slavic languages related to other Indo-Europeans in Europe that their blood is intermixed with that of the Scythians.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I think it more realistic to just include Indo-Iranians around today and see how they could be more unified. We certainly could have seen a Greater Persian from Mesopotamia to the Indus and north to the Aral Sea. It could well have become a superpower. As for the Scythians and kin, I think if they were to survive they would end up in Europe most likely as a distinct entity. I believe that because of the eastern lexicography of the Slavic languages related to other Indo-Europeans in Europe that their blood is intermixed with that of the Scythians.
Hmm. What you mentioned about the Persian Empire is actually exactly the borders of the Persian Empire till the Islamic invasions. They held territories till the Aral Sea and towards the North of that lived Scythians. Indus valley was held in the East but not settled much by Persians I think. Persians and Zoroastrians then we're limited to today's KPK in the Southeast is my guess. Towards the Northeast,it was Sogdia. Also the cities in Transoxania were mostly inhabited by Persians and Sogdians as it seems rather than the Scythians who lived more proximately. Scythians had a wide dominion. They had Khotan in the East and were spread till the Balkans or even Pannonia in the West. The descendents of Scythians in Europe have many Hypotheses. Hungarians are definitely for a large part having Scythian ancestry as they were initially a part of a confederation in which even Scythians(their subset Sarmatians) also came. Lasz in Hungary are still Iranian speaking. What happened later is that the Scythians were assimilated into the population of the region like into Romanians,Slavs,Magyars(Hungarians),etc. Alans ventured the Westernmost into Spain. So Scythians were truly marvellous in terms of territory. But they were Nomadic than settled.
Now what my plan for this timeline is that let Scythians have their version of Zoroastrianism,settle cities in the Central Asia,Volga Basin other than the cities inhabited then by Persians and Sogdians and then build an empire. Then I want to see how the two Iranian Zoroastrian Empires interact with each other. Tocharians will come into the picture as in absense of huge invasions from the East as the Empire is well defended and will join with the Eastern Iranian peoples' Empire and settle inside. In OTL,the Tocharians formed the confederation called Yuezhi with the Eastern Iranian peoples. Now with these two empires initially fighting and later becoming one under Zoroastrianism,I would be interested to see how all this would affect Europe with the later massive invasions checked by this empire itself. Finno-Ugric and Tocharians are the Non Iranian peoples who will join the Empire in this timeline. Finno-Ugric peoples already said to have had quite some relations with the Scythians in OTL so I think that would be possible. Also,Zoroastrianism in this TL will be more universal as it is going to get a lot wider than OTL and such.
 
Indo aryans were not going aconquering in India, like I said in the previous thread the simplest explanation which is much more accurate is that groups of priestly families from perhaps the afghanistan/himalayan areas moved into India and won the favour of local tribes, chieftans and kings and rather than an imposition it was an adoption of the language and culture. Thus their was no ivnasion and the claim that people in himalayas look north/central european which is why they were indo-aryan is wrong because indo-aryans are not defined by skin color. The better explanation for whiter people in himalayas is that like in northern europe, cold climates humans evolve with lgihter pgimentation because they dont need to deal with the same level of sunlight so the entire premise of your idea is difficult to prove. But the thing that is certain is that the Indo-Aryans were not conquerors they were migrants who brought with them traditions that local chiefs and kings coopted. Such ane xplanaion would easily explain influence of central asian type genes in Higher castes than some explanation of large scale migrations.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
@Gustavus Adolphus Indo-Aryans weren't invaders but migrants is what I agree. They were a subset of Indo-Iranian peoples along with the other two Iranian and Nuristani. We are focusing more on the Iranian branch here. We will come to Indo-Aryans later or in a different thread. The Indo-Aryans aren't an indigenous group to India like weren't anybody previously. They were all migrants from somewhere but originally from East Africa. Indo-Aryans were just a migrant group from the South Central Asia. That's all. However,this thread will be limited only to Iranian peoples,Tocharians and Finno-Ugric peoples as of now. We will touch Indo-Aryans later.
 
If we go full-on Scythia-spraying then you could effectively have them supplanting the Slav's place in history but having a Eurasian empire consolidated much earlier. It highly likely though that the Scytho-Sarmatians and Scytho-Khotanese would overtime diverge and drift apart possibly with a Pan-Scythianism ideology appearing later as an modernised western empire seeks to reunify old Scythia. From the Baltic to the Pacific, from the Caspian to the Frozen North, Great Scythia!

Also could have the Lasz take over Hungary (I've a fictional nation project, Iasca, that basically does this) and have them invade India and China. If we count Tocharians in we've got Kushano, a large Buddhist Empire and Khotan in the Tarim Basin. If a Parthian culture cements itself in Iran then they are in the Scythia cultural sphere. I imagine a fusion of Mazdan, Buddhist and Aryan folk beliefs would persist as part of the religious landscape. They'd still be a diverse bunch, probably too diverse to keep together for centuries but could form a whole 'civilisation' distinct from the rest of the world, including millions of people and a contiguous area more extensive than any other.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
I doubt if this Scythian or Tocharian empire wanted to go too East into China and stoke them. Kazakhstan,Parts of Uzbekistan,Ukraine and Volga Basin is where Scythians lived first. Then they migrated into the Tarim and set up the Khotan. Khotanese Scythians were also Buddhist like the Tocharians. I don't know how they could establish themselves if they migrated into China and India like that. Like OTL they would assimilate into the more dominant groups there. Bactrians,Kushans,Greeks,Sogdians who lived on the entrance of India from that side. The best bet for them would be to collaborate on a larger scale with the Tocharians with whom they formed the Yuezhi confederation. Finno-Ugric people on the other side would be very neumerous. They were already in touch with the Scythians in OTL so they could join this confederation. The three could then establish colonies for agriculture and animal Husbandry on plains of Kazakhstan,parts of Uzbekistan(or called Transoxania then) where the Persians and Sogdians were weaker,Volga Basin,Ukraine and hence even Khotanese would be connected. The religion could be an Iranian-Uralic- Buddhist Hybrid philosophy with minorities of Nestorian Chriatians,Jews,Zoroastrians,maybe Hindus,etc. Large centers of learning and urban centres would then come up where Persian,Indian,Roman scholars would come and hence increase the influence to these regions. With so much land,it is better if they wouldn't go around and Stoke the Persians,Romans,Slavs,Chinese,India,Greeks,Germans,etc. Instead,they could themselves have influenced these peoples.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Add to this,Tarim Basin would be a part of the Empire and Sogdia would be influenced by both Persia and Scythio-Tocharian-Uralic Empire. It acts as a meeting point between the two huge powers.
Rome in this timeline shares the border with the Empire in today's Dacia and Pannonia. The Tri junction between Roman Empire,S-T-U Empire and the Germanic tribes would be somewhere near today's Slovakia. Balts and Slavs inhabit large regions towards the North of the Empire and are a source of a settler stream into the Empire. Not much threatening. The Germanic confederations threaten the Western border but there is enough strength to defend. Romans on the other hand first share a hate relation which soon becomes a friendly relation later as both empires influence each other. So this would be the scene in the Antiquity.
 
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Albert.Nik

Banned
So here we set off with the Timeline. I'll edit the title shortly but anyway,let's focus on this.
The Scythian kings and their royalty,Tocharian administrators,city state Kings,princes and princesses,Finno-Ugric kings and their royalties meet in Sogdian and Persian city of Samarkand. The Persian polity oversees the agreement of these Kings and negotiates conditions. The Empire is created. This was initiated by the Persians and the Scythians who talked to the Finno-Ugrics and the Tocharians to tender this agreement to create a stable Empire in the Central Asian Steppes which would serve as a great power balance and increase the stability in the Europe,Central Asia and Persia and all the nations South like India. The capital is provided temporarily at Samarkand by the Persians and the Sogdians. But conditions are signed. First,nobody should be converted out of Zoroastrianism. Second is that nobody would intervene in the Zoroastrian practices of the masses. Third is that no siege weapons and no attempts to depose the Persian and Sogdian Zoroastrian rulers.
The conditions are agreed and the foundation is laid for the new planned capital in today's Kazakhstan. This region is dominated by Scythian majority who sign an agreement with the Tocharians and the Finno-Ugrics that their religious worship buildings are welcome in the new capital and they won't force the settlers of these ethnicities in the capital which is in Scythia that they won't be forced into the Scythian religious rites and instead practice their own. The agreements are signed and the foundation of the capital is laid and construction starts progressing. Food plans are done. In summer,wheat,Millets and vegetables would be grown. In the winter,they rely on trade and storage to get food for the Vegetarian Tocharian Buddhist religious leaders and polity and others would eat meat with spices. Trade routes are established with Romans,India,China and Persia. Beef is not to be taken into or sold in any Tocharian Buddhist or Zoroastrian colonies and temples/monasteries. Instead,pigs,sheep,chickens and edible insects are eaten by them.
The foundation stage is done.
 
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