Your mission, should you chose to accept it, is to make a world where India replaces Europe as the primary source of modern colonial powers. The usual suspects (Europe and East Asia) don't have to be crushed into the ground, but India does need to have preeminence in establishing trade and empires that link the world.
AHC/WI More expansionist Indosphere
- Thread starter PobreCesar
- Start date
Paradoxer
Banned
No Islam makes this easier but Indian faiths and culture are not as expansionist in nature or militaristic like Europeans. You could have more trading influences and cultural sphere spread that way across Indian Ocean.
Plus Hindu and Buddhism could spread more into Middle East, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, along with Oceania. They likely acculturation locals much more so and most of population demographic movements are more upper class and elites. All Hindu and Buddhist or similar sects across marrying and etc.
Plus Hindu and Buddhism could spread more into Middle East, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, along with Oceania. They likely acculturation locals much more so and most of population demographic movements are more upper class and elites. All Hindu and Buddhist or similar sects across marrying and etc.
This would be a good start but we need to start this before (and ideally avert the creation of) the taboo against sea travel.
Didn't the Chola Empire set up a system like that during their domination of SE Asia?
Paradoxer
Banned
I knew about that taboo but not exact details or origins. If they spread more west those let’s say to Iran it be odd and rather dumb not to use Persian gulf and near by sea routes for trade which leads to piracy therefore at least merchant defense navy just for that purpose alone(think Roman navy but more suited for deep water too). India has a lot people and trade just has to be steady. How did Hinduism end up Indonesia before Islam? They could settle it like Greeks did in Mediterranean. Basically funded expeditions or on apart of third party group in name of some kingdom
What about Swahili coast, that is Hindu influenced instead of Arab/Islamic influenced like IOTL?
You probably want more internal division and competition in the subcontinent to encourage expansion and innovation. I don’t think you need to get rid of Islam entirely, but you probably want to make it one of multiple competitive forces instead of the monolithic geopolitical situation of Islam vs Hinduism that occurred OTL.
I know it’s really unlikely, but what about some sort of resurgence in Buddhism out of Sri Lanka into Tamilakam spurring division there? The Malabar Coast was long one of the wealthier parts of India, and one of the regions most interested in the outside world. Making it a competitive, divided region might spur on expansion.
Or hell, for an easier PoD just wank the Chola dynasty and have it successfully colonize Southeast Asia.
I know it’s really unlikely, but what about some sort of resurgence in Buddhism out of Sri Lanka into Tamilakam spurring division there? The Malabar Coast was long one of the wealthier parts of India, and one of the regions most interested in the outside world. Making it a competitive, divided region might spur on expansion.
Or hell, for an easier PoD just wank the Chola dynasty and have it successfully colonize Southeast Asia.
I'm a fan of the Cholas, but I don't know how to make them more successful.
I think splitting the Malabar Coast has potential, and it has been split at several points OTL.
That works well as a starting point geographically for expansion, thanks.
Paradoxer
Banned
what about anything soon after the death of Alexander the Great? What’s going on in India during that time?
Isn't there some sort of tradition in Hinduism that a Hindu shouldn't settle outside of India? If there is, I don't know where that would've come from, considering that the Greeks and Romans (who both followed pagan religions derived from the same Indo-European source as Hinduism) weren't averse to settling outside of Greece and Italy (just look at all the Greek colonies around the Mediterranean, Alexander The Great or the Roman Empire).
Not necessarily settling outside of India, but there is a taboo about using artificial modes of transport, if I recall correctly. That helps limit expansion, especially by sea.
I think the most possibility is that india expanded their influence into south east asia and possibly into the Middle East
Indian influence extended to Sofala OTL
Indian traders sold iron ore to crafters in India, the Laccadives and Maldives but also traded copper and gold found inland.
If they can undercut or influence Yemen to agreater degree it could butterfly away pre and post Islamic arab dominance in West Indian Ocean trade.
— Muhammad al-Idrisi
Indian traders sold iron ore to crafters in India, the Laccadives and Maldives but also traded copper and gold found inland.
If they can undercut or influence Yemen to agreater degree it could butterfly away pre and post Islamic arab dominance in West Indian Ocean trade.
I believe the rise of the Maurya Empire.
What impact would be had if the taboo had never arisen?
Perhaps Yemen could be weakened with a more prolonged war between Ethiopia and Iran for influence there.
If the Chola held Sri Lanka, might they have continued to extend maritime power?
Paradoxer
Banned
Could India produce its own Alexander type figure under Maurya Empire? The Maurya spread north and west mostly along land then later Chola focus more on South and trade. Probably best north and south stay divided from each other. When did that taboo about sea travel originate from and when exactly? Was that around during time of Maurya too? Don’t know how deep back that goes.
Paradoxer
Banned
Also what about Buddha taking the route of a great king(military expansion) instead of going route of otl or at least myths based on historical context claim?
Saw this map from Map Thread, might be a great way for Indosphere to extend in both West and EastCross-posting my entry for MotF 231:
In the tower room, surrounded by murals and silk, Alexander rests his head in his hands. His thick, silver hair--he has not gone bald, at least--falls over his eyes, blocking Alexandria from sight. It is not much more than a blur, anyway, these days. The Alexandrine Code, in twenty-seven thick upright scrolls, stands to his left. Bits of the planned Life and Deeds of Alexander III, King of Macedon lie on the scribe’s table, and others in a heap of papyrus and wax tablets to his right. His Commentaries on Achilles, Craft of Ares & Athena, Alexander’s Geography, and Lyrics of Alexander are stowed in great chests beneath, alongside the annotated Iliad he once carried across the Indus. Old age has made him literary. How long has it been since the real fires blazed in his heart? Encased in a sarcophagus of government ever since Sinope, he had almost forgotten glory, laid aside the need for vengeance. Only now, when the chance is past, do the embers flare up again. There will never be that last readjudication--it had seemed vaguely fated, however distant--of the Hydaspes. King Porus, called “Great,” is dead.
He is thinking of Odysseus with the oar now. The sword of battle, carried so deep among the palace’s curtains that it has been mistaken for a scepter. But he will not return to his home country, where the eastern sun beats down, the smells of dust and sweat rise all round, the dying scream, and the tips of sarissas flash. Here let him make an offering to his old persecutor. Alexander smiles. Yes, there’s a poem in that….
***
The POD is at the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC. IOTL Alexander the Great defeated a renowned soldier-king named Porus, but his men quailed at the might of the Nanda Empire beyond, thus setting the limit on his conquests. ITTL, Porus is the victor. Seeing how easily his retreating enemy won an empire, Porus recruits local rulers and ambitious military men to replicate the feat. He pursues Alexander's exhausted troops, conquering all the way to the shores of the Mediterranean, and picking up the valuable Cassander son of Antipater, a Macedonian commander hostile to Alexander, along the way. In the end, after suffering a defeat at Tarsus and achieving a final victory in Assyria, Porus agrees to a rather awkward Euphrates border in the West.
In the East, the estranged Nanda prince Pabbata commands Porus’ troops on the Indus, conquering cities from his father Dhana Nanda and the smaller kingdoms on the imperial frontier. His lieutenant and sometime rival is one Chandragupta Maurya (Hellenized “Andrakotta”). Pabbata turns west to aid Porus, but Chandragupta goes east. As IOTL, the details of his campaign against the Nanda Empire are unknown, early Indian historiography being sparse and inexact, but in a few years he has expanded the territories subservient to Porus all the way to the Bay of Bengal. After the final treaty with Alexander, the empire is divided into semi-autonomous three “portions.” Porus directly rules the central and largest one, while Cassander takes the West and Chandragupta the East.
The empire will fight a series of wars in central India with modest success. The records of these campaigns brought back by Greek mercenaries serving in the imperial forces will become key texts for historians of ancient India, and are responsible for the highly Hellenized names of Indian cities on the map (e.g. Podanapura-->Potamopolis). Another war with Alexander brings Pontus and some nearby states under Porus’ protection, extending his power to the Black Sea.
This will prove the height of the empire: as its leading figures die off, it will become increasingly difficult to hold such a large territory together. The West will split off in a few decades, taking a chunk of the center with it, but Porid kings will continue to rule in India and central Asia for a couple of centuries longer. Buddhism will find its way to the Mediterranean and the Jaxartes. Of the many Indian settlements in the western regions, those in our Oman and Kyrgyzstan/Tajikistan will prove especially permanent. As for Alexander, he will live to put his Macedonian Empire on good footing, establishing laws, fathering sons, and keeping the rising powers to his west in check--but disappointment will haunt him to the end of his illustrious days.
***
This map was a bit of an ordeal, really, and I rushed it at the end, but I’m 90% pleased with how it came out. I’ve had the idea of an Indian Alexander in the back of my head for years, and it was good to finally do something with it. I wish I’d had time to include more details: names and rulers of satrapies, sites of Greek and Indian colonies, the dispersal of Buddhism and Jainism, etc.
(Also, I wish I’d come up with a good alternative to BCE dating, which feels a little off in a map with a pre-Christian POD--though no more so than using English, I suppose.)
Paradoxer
Banned
Probably better to wait until Alexander dies and infighting starts those. Indians biggest advantage against Alexander army were elephants and climate/diseases there. India big and populous. They probably be wise to secure and consolidate north India first then looking west. Alexander not ideal person to fight against or more highly militarized Greeks.
The polis and citizenship in Greek world was often based around military service or land ownership. Citizens are expected to be soldiers and warriors too. One reason they often beat Persians or other enemies while outnumbered. They simple were more adapt and experienced in warfare compared to eastern counterparts who often depended on numbers or Calvary.
Kaushlendra pratap singh
Banned
India biggest advantage is bowman with iron arow who will destroy the unprotected phalanx of Alexander, and the horse will die before reaching Magadha, the compound bow will lose its potency if they fight in the rain biggest advantage of Alexander against porus , with help of horse archer Alexander destroyed porus horse.
So, in a nutshell:
1) Greater Indian cultural influence in Iran and Swahili Coast; maintain influence in Indonesia
2) Greater competition on Malabar Coast
3) India avoids the Kalapani taboo against sailing and Indian merchants rather than Arab ones dominate the West Indian Ocean
4) Longer-lasting Chola Empire; OTL Cholas used Hindu clerics as administrators which alienated their Buddhist subjects in Sri Lanka. If they manage to make that more palatable, perhaps they can hold onto their sphere of influence long enough to set a precedent
5) Longer lasting Greek presence in India could establish more of a connection
A few other points:
If the Indosphere begins its colonial adventures before the 11th century, Japan will be relatively easy to take which would put them in a good position to send out ships across East Asia.
*Indonesia should probably expand into Australia
Just for geographic reasons, it is difficult to arrange for Indians rather than Europeans to dominate the Americas, but it's not inconceivable that these states could be comparably poor and manipulated economically by a successful Indosphere the way Britain dominated many Latin American nations OTL.
If we do take the Iran-as-part-of-the-Indosphere scenario, keeping Egypt under Iranian domination would help.
A WIP incorporating some of these ideas
1) Greater Indian cultural influence in Iran and Swahili Coast; maintain influence in Indonesia
2) Greater competition on Malabar Coast
3) India avoids the Kalapani taboo against sailing and Indian merchants rather than Arab ones dominate the West Indian Ocean
4) Longer-lasting Chola Empire; OTL Cholas used Hindu clerics as administrators which alienated their Buddhist subjects in Sri Lanka. If they manage to make that more palatable, perhaps they can hold onto their sphere of influence long enough to set a precedent
5) Longer lasting Greek presence in India could establish more of a connection
A few other points:
If the Indosphere begins its colonial adventures before the 11th century, Japan will be relatively easy to take which would put them in a good position to send out ships across East Asia.
*Indonesia should probably expand into Australia
Just for geographic reasons, it is difficult to arrange for Indians rather than Europeans to dominate the Americas, but it's not inconceivable that these states could be comparably poor and manipulated economically by a successful Indosphere the way Britain dominated many Latin American nations OTL.
If we do take the Iran-as-part-of-the-Indosphere scenario, keeping Egypt under Iranian domination would help.
A WIP incorporating some of these ideas