AHC/WI: Larger Early French Nuclear Program

Delta Force

Banned
For the purposes of this, the PoD can be anytime following the discovery of fission in 1938. That can include a no/late World War II situation, or anything similar. It's more of an exploration of a larger French nuclear program.

Historically, France had a rather sophisticated nuclear program, but suffered years of lost research as a result of World War II. After the war it rapidly grew its military program, but it wasn't until after the first energy crisis in 1973 that France began the large nuclear power program it is famous for today. However, an earlier and more extensive nuclear power program could have fit into French interests. Obviously, it would have had the benefit of reducing French energy imports, especially since France lacks large coal and petroleum deposits. It would also have had the advantage of allowing France to pursue a more independent foreign policy. For a period in the Cold War, nuclear technology was a source of soft power, giving suppliers a degree of power and prestige. The first French nuclear reactors would have been ideal for export for power generation purposes, as the UNGG design was a gas cooled reactor with a concrete pressure vessel, lowering purchase costs and reducing industrial requirements. They could also have been popular among more developed nations, as together with British gas cooled designs, French reactors were considered the most advanced in the world for a period of time in 1950s, although France later adopted its own pressurized light water design.

While France may have been behind the superpowers and United Kingdom in nuclear technology due to the consequences of World War II, it caught up in a short period of time. Might France have done even better, developing its nuclear power program earlier, perhaps an even larger player in commercial nuclear power than Areva currently is?

Also, if France had somehow had an even larger program closer to that of the Soviet Union and United States, what might parallels to Project Plowshare, Nuclear Explosions for the National Economy, NS Savannah, NERVA, and NEPA have looked like?
 

Delta Force

Banned
Bumping again, this time with an image of Superphénix and more information. Feel free to respond to the OP as well, I'm interested in that too. More text is below the image.

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After making the decision to switch to light water technology, France developed sodium cooled breeder reactors to help stabilize the supply of uranium for what everyone thought would be the impeding uranium shortage. Because there were less reactors built and more uranium than initially thought, the shortage never came to occur. Is there a reason why France decided to pursue sodium cooled designs instead of something else, such as a gas cooled fast breeder reactor?
 

Delta Force

Banned
Apparently a heavy water reactor was considered for the experimental French Navy submarine Q244/Gymnote (Gymnote was later completed as a diesel-electric missile test platform). Does anyone know if the French experimented with or otherwise considered developing heavy water reactors for commercial use?
 
I know this is an old thread.

Apparently a heavy water reactor was considered for the experimental French Navy submarine Q244/Gymnote (Gymnote was later completed as a diesel-electric missile test platform). Does anyone know if the French experimented with or otherwise considered developing heavy water reactors for commercial use?

France developed a heavy water moderated, gas cooled reactor in Brennilis that operated for almost 20 years.
The initial idea was apparently to have a natural uranium fuelled reactor that could produce steam at a temperature of 500°C using exotic materials like beryllium for cladding the fuel. This however didn't work out and the HWGCR concept is frankly bizarre and over complicated in my opinion.

France's PWR technology was obtained under licence from Westinghouse and then improved domestically. The improvements being bigger reactors culminating in today's EPR. Construction times were significantly higher for these new reactors than for the older 900MW units.

The UNGG reactor was only exported to Spain. If you compare it with later generation Magnoxes, the British Magnoxes were superior in almost every aspect. Just consider that you had 2 incidents involving UNGG fuel elements that resulted in shutdowns.
Neither the French nor the British sadly perfected the basic Magnox concept further with replaceable boilers etc.

More exotic reactor concepts were looked into up to the mid 1970s, including MSRs. All the projects involved furthering the Franco-British cooperation that already existed on a limited scale for gas reactors.
 

Delta Force

Banned
I know this is an old thread.



France developed a heavy water moderated, gas cooled reactor in Brennilis that operated for almost 20 years.
The initial idea was apparently to have a natural uranium fuelled reactor that could produce steam at a temperature of 500°C using exotic materials like beryllium for cladding the fuel. This however didn't work out and the HWGCR concept is frankly bizarre and over complicated in my opinion.

France's PWR technology was obtained under licence from Westinghouse and then improved domestically. The improvements being bigger reactors culminating in today's EPR. Construction times were significantly higher for these new reactors than for the older 900MW units.

The UNGG reactor was only exported to Spain. If you compare it with later generation Magnoxes, the British Magnoxes were superior in almost every aspect. Just consider that you had 2 incidents involving UNGG fuel elements that resulted in shutdowns.
Neither the French nor the British sadly perfected the basic Magnox concept further with replaceable boilers etc.

More exotic reactor concepts were looked into up to the mid 1970s, including MSRs. All the projects involved furthering the Franco-British cooperation that already existed on a limited scale for gas reactors.

Using heavy water would remove the safety advantages of graphite moderation, and carbon dioxide is already corrosive. They could have retrofitted Magnox to cope with it if the corrosion risk had been discovered earlier, but at such high temperatures I don't see how it won't be a big problem.

It seems it would be better to take the more conventional approach and use graphite moderator and an exotic gas. The fuel elements would still require exotic materials, but the fundamentals are more sound.
 
Using heavy water would remove the safety advantages of graphite moderation, and carbon dioxide is already corrosive. They could have retrofitted Magnox to cope with it if the corrosion risk had been discovered earlier, but at such high temperatures I don't see how it won't be a big problem.

It seems it would be better to take the more conventional approach and use graphite moderator and an exotic gas. The fuel elements would still require exotic materials, but the fundamentals are more sound.

Corrosion is not a problem on AGRs and they operate at 660°C. Stainless steel usage in key components like fuel cladding, boilers etc. prevents corrosion from happening.

Heavy water can act as a heat sink in the same way that graphite does. It also removes the problem of radiolytic corrosion of graphite.
 
It seems it would be better to take the more conventional approach and use graphite moderator and an exotic gas. The fuel elements would still require exotic materials, but the fundamentals are more sound.
Dragon was operating at Winfrith from 1965 onwards with Helium gas. That solved pretty much all of the problems, and was the preferred coolant for the later UK MSR designs (the alternative being IIRC molten lead - I have the report somewhere).

Corrosion is not a problem on AGRs and they operate at 660°C. Stainless steel usage in key components like fuel cladding, boilers etc. prevents corrosion from happening.
Unfortunately it also forces you to use enriched uranium - which rather gets away with the whole reason the UK was building Magnox in the first place!
 

Delta Force

Banned
Corrosion is not a problem on AGRs and they operate at 660°C. Stainless steel usage in key components like fuel cladding, boilers etc. prevents corrosion from happening.

Wasn't the issue with Magnox that they used mild steel instead of higher quality steel? I haven't read about the thermal output having to be reduced with the UNGG reactors, did they use higher quality materials?

Heavy water can act as a heat sink in the same way that graphite does. It also removes the problem of radiolytic corrosion of graphite.

Graphite is replaceable on the RBMK reactors. Why weren't Magnox or the AGR designs built with that in mind, especially since it's proven to be the life limiting factor on both?
 
France had several chances but not pick it up.

If Marie Curie work focus not radium but uranium, it could kick started the French research nuclear program in 1930s
i heard that French government had in begin of WW2, a study group for nuclear bomb, but if that is true i don't know

After World War 2, France under DeGaulle had short life nuclear bomb & rocket program.
but with forming of Fourth Republic with out DeGaulle, the new administration terminated that program fast in 1949.
Until the Suez Crisis, then they realized, that France needed the Bomb to be a player along the Big Superpowers.
So they start Nuclear bomb program in 1957,
with return of DeGaulle as president of fifth Republic in 1958 the program got intensified, including it delivery Systems.

But from here France Nuclear program remained military and research only.
Understandable with Algeria Civil War they had other problems
Until 1973 the Saudia Arabian rise the oil price
Suddenly the French intensified there nuclear energy program to be independent of oil

there were proposal for NERVA type rocket engine, but lack of interest by politician and lack of budget this proposals remained ideas...
 
Bigger reactors running on natural uranium will never achieve the economies of scale that enriched gas cooled reactors can achieve. A big advantage of the AGR is that it can produce standard quality steam and thence use the same steam machinery as coal fired power stations.
The Magnox line was more or less at a dead end with Wylfa.

Wasn't the issue with Magnox that they used mild steel instead of higher quality steel? I haven't read about the thermal output having to be reduced with the UNGG reactors, did they use higher quality materials?

It's actually even more complicated than that. Its mild steel bolts used to link components together that were the problem. They corroded while the other bits that were made of stainless steel didn't. These bolts however held key components together.
This article covers some of the issues.

The UNGG were designed somewhat differently. Though as far as I'm concerned in their light of poorer thermal efficiencies and two accidents. The UNGG is a poor reactor design.

Graphite is replaceable on the RBMK reactors. Why weren't Magnox or the AGR designs built with that in mind, especially since it's proven to be the life limiting factor on both?

More complexity in the vessel, since the reactor steel vessel would have to be opened etc. to allow this to take place. What do you to keep radioactivity out? Do you flood it like a PWR vessel?
Replaceable graphite bricks with fuel mixed-in were considered for a later development of AGR reactors in the 1980s. But this rather radical development never received the funding it required to make it happen.

I'll need to go back to the National Archives soon to see if more papers from the 1980s have been declassified under the 30 year rule. They may cover some of these developments.
 
How about France using the nuclear program in the post-war era to support European integration, and limit dependence on German coal? It'd give France a bigger market for its reactors from the start, and potentially provide financial support from Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc. German participation in European integration would be with the understanding that open trade in coal comes with open channels of investment in nuclear power from France.

Making the French nuclear power industry more European gives it a much larger level of scale, and potentially allows for the recruitment of human capital from elsewhere in Europe. If the energy crisis of the 1970s happens ITTL, it could be the impetus for a full reorientation of European energy policy toward nuclear power; thus avoiding the risk of extensive imports of oil and gas from the Soviet Union, and reducing the problem of pollution from coal.
 
Bonus points if Madam Curie's sucessors can keep a research pile running during WW2.
If it generates electricity, it might almost break-even economically.

If it is hidden in the Massif Central, German invaders would've be slow to find it.
If it is co-located with a hydro-electric dam, its presence would not be immediately apparent on the national electric grid.
 
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