AHC WI Julian the Apostate re-established paganism

Could Julian the Apostate succesfully re-establish paganism as the main religion in the Roman Empire

  • Very unlikely (0-20%)

    Votes: 29 26.6%
  • Unlikely (20-40%)

    Votes: 45 41.3%
  • Possible (40-60%)

    Votes: 29 26.6%
  • Likely (60-80%)

    Votes: 3 2.8%
  • Very likely (80-100%)

    Votes: 3 2.8%

  • Total voters
    109

Skallagrim

Banned
The likelihood is difficult to ascertain. His actual plans were pretty solid and quite crafty. He had a very good understanding of several factors that worked in Christianity's favour, and made viable plans to alter those factors in his favour. The major problem is that he also had a lot of other obsessions, and the chances of him getting killed to soon to see it through, being to pre-occupied during his life to see it through, or both being pre-occupied and dying too soon are really quite considerable.

Then there's the other thing: the chances of him "re-establishing paganism" are actually exactly 0%... because whatever he may have claimed, that is not what he was doing. He was creating a new religion, using the old traditions as the ritualistic and mythological basis, but (purposely!) copying the clerical structure of Christianity... and deeply drenched in Neoplatonism. Had he succeeded, it would not have been in saving or restoring paganism, but in fundamentally altering it.

I've written some commentary on this matter in a previous thread, which I'll reproduce here in a tidied-up form:

----

The weakness of various pagan religions compared to their monotheistic comparisons was a distinct lack of clear, all-encompassing doctrine and organisation. What Julian had in mind was actually along the lines of deliberately stopping the fluid, syncretic character of the Religio Romana. He was acutely aware of the harsh reality that when you get a competition between on the one hand a faith without a set orthodoxy or a universal clerical structure (and which is by definition tolerant of other deities), and on the other hand a religion with a defined orthodoxy and an organised clerical structure (which is also monotheistic and denies the very existence of all other gods)... the latter is going to win. Simply because the former tolerates the latter in its midst, while the latter will never tolerate the former. So if the former gains power, the latter can continue to bide its time... but when the latter gains enough power, the former gets killed off.

Julian's solution was, in all likelihood, the only realistic solution: it was to create an orthodoxy and a universal clerical structure for the Religio Romana. Essentially, he wanted to define a definitive 'version' of the religion, and institute a priesthood to maintain that new orthodoxy. A canonical version of the ancient myths would be penned, in a document surely meant to explicitly rival the Christian scripture. He purposely tried to re-organise his own religion into something that was structurally a lot more like Christianity. An all-ecompassing, organised priesthood. His own version of definitive religious texts. State sponsoring of his religion. Because he knew that a religion that has suvh organising capacity (as well as state backing) simply has a great advantage. Roman paganism was doomed to change, even if it won out over christianity due to Julian's efforts, because it would win out precisely by becoming far more like the Christian faith that Julian so despised. He was well aware of this irony, it seems, but his goal was to use the enemy's (obviously succesful) methods and instruments against them. A very good book that sets out Julian's character and his religous ideas and goals is Rowland B. E. Smith's Julian's Gods: Religion and Philosophy in the Thought and Action of Julian the Apostate. Very briefly summarised (and omitting a lot):

-- Julian planned to explicitly include a whole lot of Neoplatonism in the definitive texts of "the old religion", so he was very far from actually preserving, and more planning to change things in the direction he liked. The Gods would, at least to some extent, be recast as 'representations' of the all-encompassing divine Absolute (or whatever name one might give to that). Elements from mystery religions would be deliberately syncretised and absorbed into the new religious 'canon'.

-- Julian was not planning to exterminate Christianity, or to fully end religious tolerance. (At least: he wouldn't ban Christianity until he had crucially weakened it and meanwhile consolidated his own religion. Smith argues that Julian obviously hated cChristianity a lot, and would probably have banned it for good at a later stage. Do note that this is Smith's reading of Julian's character, and based on conjecture.)

-- Certainly, heterodox (and localised) versions of the Roman-Hellenic religion would be tolerated. But the new orthodox version of the Religio Romana would enjoy the favour of the state. Christianity would be tolerated, but hindered/discouraged. For instance, Christians would no longer be allowed to open schools (ensuring that education would fall to the religious schools of the Religio Romana, which the state would fund).

-- Christian churches would no longer be tasked with the distribution of alms to the poor on behalf of the state. By Julian's time, Christian churches got state funding in quite a few instances, for the purpose of performing such charitable work. (Robin Lane Fox also goes into this, in Pagans and Christians.) The whole problem was that in the old days, pagan temples had been funded by pious patricians, but this traditional conduct was in steep decline. Christianity kind of filled a developing vacuum, and its higher degree of organisation made it much better at 'temple charity' (or rather: church charity). So they kind of just... got that job. This obviously drew the poor to embrace Christianity. Julian knew that, and planned to make temple charity the task (and the exclusive right) of his orthodox pagan priesthood and their temples, which would draw the poor to his religion.

-- Finally, there would be a specific tax levied on all Christian churches, to repay the damage (real or perceived) that Christians had in the past inflicted on pagans, pagan temples etc.

Julian's reforms would entail that not only would Chistian churches be deprived of state funding while pagan temples would get that funding, but the pagan temples would also befit from gaining a similar organisation structure to Christianity. Christian churches, meanwhile, would thenceforth have to rely exclusively on donations by the faithful... while also getting taxed extra. I imagine there wouldn't be a lot left to spend on charity, while Julian's religion would be pretty flush with cash. All this would serve to encourage people to join Julian's religion, while make Christianity rather unattractive. The book I mentioned does a far better job laying out Julian's plans, as well as his ideas and beliefs. But what I've outlined above should really be enough to demonstrate that Julian wasn't stupid enough to ban Christianity outright, but that his plans were actually quite realistic and pragmatic. Barring unforseen circumstances, I'm actually pretty sure that a longer-lived Julian would probably have succeeded in defeating Christianity and making his own religion dominant-- provided he didn't get distracted by other matters, that is.

The thing is, the resulting religion would no longer have been the religion of Julian's ancestors. In saving what was left to save, he would have altered it on a fundamental level. It would be, ironically, a lot more 'Christian' in its character. Incidentally, @Indicus pointed out (in the discussion where I first outlined all this) that there's another comparison available: the 'reborn' paganism of Julian would likely end up being a lot like Hinduism, as well. Certainly in the sense of "all deities being representations of a greater cosmic power", Julian's philosophical approach to his religion would be similar to Hinduism. Julian, of course, derived it from Greek philosophical notions. Specifically, from the way Neoplatonism had given a religious reading to Plato's theory of forms, leading to an idea of there being some "highest level of reality", where the Good and the True and the Just and the Beautiful would all be indentical and united in one divine Absolute. (Which also tied into philosiophical notions of a Monad / First Cause / Unmoved Mover etc.) At face value, and in the basic shape of the concept, that is pretty similar to the Hindu notion of Brahman, and the way Julian viewed the gods in relation to the Neoplatonic Absolute is indeed a lot like the way Hinduism views the gods in relation to Brahman.

In that particular context of Hinduism, one might argue that the old Religio Romana was like the Vedic religion, which would make Julian the initiator of Vedanta: rather than the one restoring the old ways, he'd be capping them off, and beginning a whole new chapter. A whole new book. A whole new religion-- rooted in the old traditions, yes, but ultimately something wholly new and different.
 
Then there's the other thing: the chances of him "re-establishing paganism" are actually exactly 0%... because whatever he may have claimed, that is not what he was doing. He was creating a new religion, using the old traditions as the ritualistic and mythological basis, but (purposely!) copying the clerical structure of Christianity... and deeply drenched in Neoplatonism. Had he succeeded, it would not have been in saving or restoring paganism, but in fundamentally altering it.

"We had to destroy paganism to save it."

Though I'm sceptical that Julian's "pagan church" could ever have become the dominant religion of the Empire, even with all its cash for charitable donations. The whole thing was obviously a creation of Julian, reflecting his personal beliefs, priorities, and background, and when you have a conflict between a religion which was obviously made up by one man and a religion which claims to have been instituted by God (or the gods -- many of the pagan cults claimed that their rites were established by the god), the latter is going to have the advantage, for obvious reasons. No doubt you'd get a fair few people joining Julian's new religion to try and ingratiate themselves with the Emperor, but I wouldn't expect that many people (apart from Julian himself) would become as attached to it as to Christianity, or even to traditional paganism, so as soon as the political situation changes and you get a non-Julianist emperor, I'd expect Julian's church to wither away pretty quickly.
 
The problem for Julian is that Christians under persecution? It was tried. Seems like Japan was one of the few countries that managed to make it work.

If Julian wins, there's still Armenia and Ethiopia, which converted around his time. Not to mention Sassanian Persia, Germania, Ireland, Caledonia and Arabia for Christians to run to. So, interesting butterflies ahead.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
The problem would be, as it was OTL, succession. He needed to live long enough to create Reformed Hellenic Paganism (I'm not even sure what provinces he nee...oh, wait, not CK2) and then hand it on to someone with as much enthusiasm for the project as him and also had the same drive to see it through. I would say this is a 3 emperor project at a time when emperors could not be sure to nominate their successors.
 
The problem would be, as it was OTL, succession. He needed to live long enough to create Reformed Hellenic Paganism (I'm not even sure what provinces he nee...oh, wait, not CK2) and then hand it on to someone with as much enthusiasm for the project as him and also had the same drive to see it through. I would say this is a 3 emperor project at a time when emperors could not be sure to nominate their successors.

Especially since Julian doesn't seem to have been particularly interested in sex, so the chances of him having a son and heir whom he could raise up as a good pagan would be quite low.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
"We had to destroy paganism to save it."

Though I'm sceptical that Julian's "pagan church" could ever have become the dominant religion of the Empire, even with all its cash for charitable donations. The whole thing was obviously a creation of Julian, reflecting his personal beliefs, priorities, and background, and when you have a conflict between a religion which was obviously made up by one man and a religion which claims to have been instituted by God (or the gods -- many of the pagan cults claimed that their rites were established by the god), the latter is going to have the advantage, for obvious reasons. No doubt you'd get a fair few people joining Julian's new religion to try and ingratiate themselves with the Emperor, but I wouldn't expect that many people (apart from Julian himself) would become as attached to it as to Christianity, or even to traditional paganism, so as soon as the political situation changes and you get a non-Julianist emperor, I'd expect Julian's church to wither away pretty quickly.

The problem would be, as it was OTL, succession. He needed to live long enough to create Reformed Hellenic Paganism (I'm not even sure what provinces he nee...oh, wait, not CK2) and then hand it on to someone with as much enthusiasm for the project as him and also had the same drive to see it through. I would say this is a 3 emperor project at a time when emperors could not be sure to nominate their successors.

I get where you're coming from, but even though Julian couldn't depend on choosing the ideal successor for his purposes, I'm fairly sure that if long-lived enough and focused enough, he could discredit and weaken Christianity to a great extent. Result: at least no Christian emperor following up Julian. That, i think, would be enough. If Julian's religion is functioning well, fulfilling the social role that the Christian Church carried out in OTL, there is no reason not to back it. Maybe not so fervently, but implicit support is enough at that point.
 

Deleted member 97083

Could laeti from outside the Roman Empire bolster the existing "pagan" population?
 
I get where you're coming from, but even though Julian couldn't depend on choosing the ideal successor for his purposes, I'm fairly sure that if long-lived enough and focused enough, he could discredit and weaken Christianity to a great extent. Result: at least no Christian emperor following up Julian. That, i think, would be enough. If Julian's religion is functioning well, fulfilling the social role that the Christian Church carried out in OTL, there is no reason not to back it. Maybe not so fervently, but implicit support is enough at that point.

I don't know; whilst official disapproval would no doubt weaken the Church, I think people overestimate this. Christianity had been through periods of persecution before without being discredited; indeed, the Catholic Church spent much of the fourth century being disapproved of or outright persecuted by Arian Emperors, and yet Arianism fell apart in the Roman Empire after it lost official approval. Maybe Julian's church would do better, but I can't see any reason why, and I can see a few reasons why it was even less likely than Arianism to take over (the big one being, as mentioned above, that it was obviously dreamt up by Julian himself).

As for the alms-giving, I'm not sure how long that would last. Since Julian's plan was essentially a PR ploy rather than a belief that charity was a moral imperative, I'd expect the poor relief fund to be a prime candidate for redirecting towards more urgent purposes when a big military crisis came along.

Could laeti from outside the Roman Empire bolster the existing "pagan" population?

Maybe, though a lot of them were Christian by this point, and the trend was for Roman federates to assimilate to Roman culture, rather than the other way around.
 
@Skallagrim

The thing is that Diocletian's use of Jupiter paired with Hercules as the basis of imperial cultic ideology, and earlier on, Aurelian's embrace of the Sun God, were distinctly linked to their political situations. Jupiter and Hercules worked well with the Tetrarchy system of senior and junior authority, while the Sun God was quite useful in a time of crisis as a restorer of order. Constantine's Christianity was selective and he still made use of and allowed for the construction of traditional imperial cult buildings.

So for Julian, he would have had to find something that made sense for his period of political ascendance. Squaring neoplatonism with his propaganda as a restorer and protector of the old ways still predominant among the Roman elite would have been a real challenge. Because he was a relatively martial emperor, a renewed focus on Mithras might have made sense because of its popularity in the army, for example.

Christianity was not fully secure in its position until the traumas in the Roman elite of the late 4th century enforced elite conversion (see the moving of the Altar of Victory and the cut off of subsidies to the Vestal Virgins and traditional priesthoods by Valentinian, and the reaction to it by figures like Symmachus).

But Julian would have needed to reverse a lot more than just a few doctrines to get the workings of imperial sponsored paganism having long term appeal. The collapse of civic participation by local elites in the empire as the bureaucracy took their place reduced the incentives to making orthopraxic civic religion work. You needed a universal religion. Mithraism might have helped short term but it was a dead end long term, and coping with the increased diversity of the empire and its elites meant finding something not too tied up in Roman practice. Perhaps the cult of Isis might have had more legs? Or some kind of Manicheanism that fit in well with Neoplatonism?
 
. The collapse of civic participation by local elites in the empire as the bureaucracy took their place reduced the incentives to making orthopraxic civic religion work.
This doesn't seem to follow for me. I don't see where the bureaucratization led to a decrease in civic participation by local elites as much as it seems like that civic participation became organized into a bureaucratic system. Local elites didn't stop participating in the state, they became the state.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
So for Julian, he would have had to find something that made sense for his period of political ascendance. Squaring neoplatonism with his propaganda as a restorer and protector of the old ways still predominant among the Roman elite would have been a real challenge. Because he was a relatively martial emperor, a renewed focus on Mithras might have made sense because of its popularity in the army, for example.

Small point, wasn't Mithraism replaced by Christianity in the army quite early? As I understood it, Christianity was strong among soldiers pre-Constantine.
 
Anyone written a TL on this yet? Topic comes up frequently.

Thing is, the West is going to fall soon anyway, and I don't see this RRR surviving state collapse.
 
You'd have to make Julian more sane than he is OTL. This is the guy whose idea of destroying Christianity is.....to rebuild the Jewish Temple??? Even pagans think he's nuts. A historian even called him the Ron Paul of Roman Emperors! :biggrin:
 
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