AHC/WI: Israel Carved From Germany

By 1945 the Jewish population with the additions to come is established to a point that once the British, bankrupt and exhausted, throw in the towel the UN will have to get involved.

In that sense I note that the UN delegation sent to evaluate the situation and offer proposals...did not have a single representative who thought that a single state was a viable option.




Wolfpaw, Jews(and others) in Europe behind the nascent Iron Curtain were leaving Stalin's area of control and this offer of land will not reverse this and will certainly not entice any refugees in Western Europe to come east.

Your suggestion that in the post-WWII period the Jews in the British Mandate were looking more like the villains is contrary to the reality.

As for the Jews already in Palestine plus those European refugees who will still see a Stalinist creation as unacceptable, the vast majority, the result will be OTL developments including a breakdown of British interest, after which the UN will again have to make the decision.

Meanwhile Jewish Prussia, with a population perhaps as high as the tens of thousands remains unviable.
 
The OP did not say it had to Soviet.

An the Soviet advance into Eastern Germany is hardly written in stone.

I don't think the Western allies are cold blooded enough to ethnically cleans millions of Germans from a West German Israel.
 
I don't think the Western allies are cold blooded enough to ethnically cleans millions of Germans from a West German Israel.

Their were only 2.7 million people in East Prussia, but besides that the West supported just that in Poland in other places.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Am I the only one who remembers the hundreds of thousands of non-Soviet Jews in Eastern Europe who are now landless? If the UN, Britain, and/or the Soviets don't want them going to Palestine, they're not going to Palestine. Or the fact that the West did not always have a problem with sending unwilling people to the East.
 
Wolfpaw, since Stalin didn't like people leaving and the British did not want a Jewish influx into Palestine post-WWII and yet somehow they did exactly what you insist would not happen...


On the non-Soviet Jews behind the Iron Curtain, whose number was not as great as you seem to imagine, the desire of these Jews for land without any regard for where the land was or who ruled the land was vastly less than you seem to imagine. Hungarian Jews had no interest in East Prussia, Polish Jews had an overwhelming interest in escaping Stalin(and Poland)...and most Jews were not owners of land prior to the war nor especially eager to break into farming afterwards.
 
Several hundred thousand jews emigrated from Former Soviet Union (mostly Russia) to Israel. Even now there still are up to 200'000 jews in Russia. So, Jewish Prussia from point of view of amount of population, was doable. Even population of 500'000 would be enough for such a state to survive and maybe even prosper (well, as much as that was possible under the socialist command economy).
 
I wonder if a Prussian Jewish state would pull in as many diverse Jewish communities as OTL Israel has? Obviously it would get a lot of Ashkenazim and other groups from the Soviet Union and its allies, but what about the Jews from Western Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Ethiopia, and the Indian subcontinent?
 

Yonatan

Banned
I dont know why Stalin will want to do this, but OTL Israel will still happen. most of the Jews in Israel in 1948 were either already there pre WW2 or emigrated mostly from arab countries. the Russians dont have all the European Jews in their territory and thinking Jews will simply go to this new Oblast in Prussia just because its free is frankly quite insulting.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
I don't think it'll change much if it's after WWII. And if it's before, why give the Jews Germany?

There's already a large Jewish population in Mandatory Palestine. Britain still wants to wash its hands of the whole affair. The Israeli underground is still going to smuggle holocaust refugees there, and a heck of a lot more are going to go to Israel than East Prussia. Heck, Stalin will probably still okay the sale of Czechoslovak arms to Israel in order to drive a wedge between the Arabs and the West.

It might change the UN vote on partition, or reduce Jewish manpower a little, but I don't think that's enough for Israel to lose.

What such a state will do is bring together Russian/Eastern Bloc Jews not allowed to emigrate who couldn't get out OTL, assorted leftist Jews, and maybe that subset of Orthodox Jews who believe that using Hebrew in a non-liturgical context or returning to the holy land before the coming of the messiah is forbidden. It'll be an interesting state, to be sure, and have a few knock-on effects on Israeli politics to boot. (For one, no Yisrael Beitenu, because the Russian Jews are happily in Konigsberg.)
 
(For one, no Yisrael Beitenu, because the Russian Jews are happily in Konigsberg.)

why does any one think the Jews would be happy to live there? :confused: I think they'd be deeply unhappy and many would leave for Israel but what ever means, likely post cold war the European Jewish state would fall apart.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
why does any one think the Jews would be happy to live there? :confused: I think they'd be deeply unhappy and many would leave for Israel but what ever means, likely post cold war the European Jewish state would fall apart.

If it develops anything like its neighbors of Poland and the Baltic states, Jewish East Prussia is headed for EU membership in short order after the fall of communism. Certainly, there will be emigration, both Zionists making aliyah and migrant workers, but I doubt the simply atrocious Russian economy that drove both observant Jews and anyone else who met Israeli migration requirements to get the heck out while they could will be mirrored in this state.
 
If it develops anything like its neighbors of Poland and the Baltic states, Jewish East Prussia is headed for EU membership in short order after the fall of communism. Certainly, there will be emigration, both Zionists making aliyah and migrant workers, but I doubt the simply atrocious Russian economy that drove both observant Jews and anyone else who met Israeli migration requirements to get the heck out while they could will be mirrored in this state.

forgot what East Germany looked like in 1989?
I'm guessing having some where that wants them and is first world would leave to a brain drain any ways but a country they were forced to live in and never really wanted to live in the first place, yeah its going to fall apart in short order over the next 10 years and massive aliyahs rip the guts out of the place.
 
forgot what East Germany looked like in 1989?
I'm guessing having some where that wants them and is first world would leave to a brain drain any ways but a country they were forced to live in and never really wanted to live in the first place, yeah its going to fall apart in short order over the next 10 years and massive aliyahs rip the guts out of the place.

I disagree. Jewish East Prussia will likely have an OK economy as far as Eastern Europe goes, will have a lot of potential once rid of communism (it's likely to be by-far the best educated country in the Soviet bloc), and will be on the fast-track to EU membership once the Wall falls.

Russian 'Jews' (the great majority of whom weren't at all religious or even cultural) went to Israel because it was their only escape from Russian economic collapse. East Prussian Jews will soon be EU citizens, which is a hell of a lot more tempting than constant war in the Middle East.

It also seems likely to me that West Germany will lavish the same sort of aid on it that it did on OTL East Germany (out of holocaust guilt, to assuage worries over German unification, and because Jewish East Prussia will be largely German in culture and language)
 
I disagree. Jewish East Prussia will likely have an OK economy as far as Eastern Europe goes, will have a lot of potential once rid of communism (it's likely to be by-far the best educated country in the Soviet bloc), and will be on the fast-track to EU membership once the Wall falls.

why would their economy be good? why would they be more educated? why would they be fast-tracked for the EU? also the first post-communist countries to join the EU was in 2004, 14 years isn't really fast in real time, also why would West Germany give them aid? in OTL West Germany paid its Holocaust Reparations in full to Israel by 1965, I'm guessing in TTL East Germany might pay some Reparations to the Jewish state, I see no reason the Germans would feel a need to pick up the tab for helping Jewish Prussia while dealing with bring East Germany up to speed, also why would a country made up of Polish and Russian Jews under Communists be "largely German in culture and language"? while Yiddish is a German like language its not German and the culture thing is just :confused:
 
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