AHC/WI - India Without Mughals

In 1526, Babur established Mughal empire after the First Battle of Panipat, which will change the history of the Subcontinent forever, so what if , Babur lost the First Battle Of Panipat and died at the battle, How will things progress and how different Indian history will be
 
Right, sorry, I jumped to conclusions before realizing that you were talking about a different battle, I apologize.
I am not an expert on the history of the sub-continent, but it seems to me that the Lodi dinasty was already very weak and riven by factionalism, so it would sooner or later fall. Northern India might then "balkanize" for a while before a power emerges to forge an empire, but unfortunately I couldn't say which one is more likely.
 

longsword14

Banned
but it's the same concept.

India, minus the Muslims.
Actually, that is not the scenario at hand. Islam already exists in India at the moment. The removal of the Lodhi dynasty which was towards the tail end of the Delhi Sultanate will definitely shift power to various other rulers.
As North India was already quite weak a guarantee does not exist that external threats do not act again. I cannot find descriptive battle plans and campaign logic behind Babur's invasion, so cannot give a detailed aftermath. it seems that the entire Mughal army was annihilated in this scenario so that should at least clear the frontiers for a while.

*The effect of Islam and the number of muslims overall will be lessened though. Nothing wrong with India with no Islam as long as a proper POD is provided. As I remember there haven't been Indian timelines with this scenario.
 
will the sur empire emerge and hemu will emerge

will vijayanagar survive

Hemu might not even come into being if the Suris don't rise, which they might not, without a Mughal dynasty to overthrow.

How are you imagining Babur loses to the far inferior Lodhi dynasty?
 
Hemu might not even come into being if the Suris don't rise, which they might not, without a Mughal dynasty to overthrow.

How are you imagining Babur loses to the far inferior Lodhi dynasty?


I wouldn't say the Lodhi were inferior in any way, simply at a major disadvantage. The Lodhi at the time were in a growth period and recovering the power of the old Tughluq dynasty of Delhi. Had the Timurid powers in Qabul had not existed or been conquered by the Shaybanids, then the Lodhi could conceivably reconquer the former Tughluq territory and likely deep into Vijaynagaran territory.
 
Hemu might not even come into being if the Suris don't rise, which they might not, without a Mughal dynasty to overthrow.

How are you imagining Babur loses to the far inferior Lodhi dynasty?
lets say because of bad luck, babur loses, i just want to see how different India will be without mughals
 
I wouldn't say the Lodhi were inferior in any way, simply at a major disadvantage. The Lodhi at the time were in a growth period and recovering the power of the old Tughluq dynasty of Delhi. Had the Timurid powers in Qabul had not existed or been conquered by the Shaybanids, then the Lodhi could conceivably reconquer the former Tughluq territory and likely deep into Vijaynagaran territory.

From what I can recall the Lodhi dynasty at this point was as you say recovering, but a recovering dynasty going up against someone like Babur who had far more advanced tech than them, and who seemed to have better strategic sense, was more likely to succeed I believe.
 
Actually, that is not the scenario at hand. Islam already exists in India at the moment. The removal of the Lodhi dynasty which was towards the tail end of the Delhi Sultanate will definitely shift power to various other rulers.

As North India was already quite weak a guarantee does not exist that external threats do not act again. I cannot find descriptive battle plans and campaign logic behind Babur's invasion, so cannot give a detailed aftermath. it seems that the entire Mughal army was annihilated in this scenario so that should at least clear the frontiers for a while.

*The effect of Islam and the number of muslims overall will be lessened though. Nothing wrong with India with no Islam as long as a proper POD is provided. As I remember there haven't been Indian timelines with this scenario.

Well North India can't be described as weak during this time. The Lodhis were definitely weak and yes they were to a large extent factionalized as can be seen when the Governor of Punjab, Daulat Khan Lodhi basically let Babur in without opposition through the Punjab which led to the First Battle of Panipat.

While the Lodhis were weak, almost the whole of Rajputana was united under Rana Sanga of Mewad who posed a great threat to Babur even after Babur defeated him at Khanwa in 1527, Babur once again came close to defeat against him at Chanderi in 1528 and was able to scrounge a victory just because he had cannons. First of all the Battle of Khanwa was won due to defection of Sardar Silhadi, the Rana's vassal who commanded a 30,000 strong contingent of the Rana's forces at Khanwa. This Sardar had previously been sent by the Rana with a warning to leave India intended for Babur. It is during this meeting that Silhadi choose to defect to Babur. Had not for this defection Babur would have been driven out of India even after he won at Panipat.

And just before the Battle of Khanwa Rana Sanga had crushed the Sultanates of Gujarat and Malwa and had annexed some parts of Malwa while leaving the Gujarat Sultanate susceptible to collapse if he attacked it once again.
 

longsword14

Banned
Well North India can't be described as weak during this time. The Lodhis were definitely weak and yes they were to a large extent factionalized as can be seen when the Governor of Punjab, Daulat Khan Lodhi basically let Babur in without opposition through the Punjab which led to the First Battle of Panipat.

While the Lodhis were weak, almost the whole of Rajputana was united under Rana Sanga of Mewad who posed a great threat to Babur even after Babur defeated him at Khanwa in 1527, Babur once again came close to defeat against him at Chanderi in 1528 and was able to scrounge a victory just because he had cannons. First of all the Battle of Khanwa was won due to defection of Sardar Silhadi, the Rana's vassal who commanded a 30,000 strong contingent of the Rana's forces at Khanwa. This Sardar had previously been sent by the Rana with a warning to leave India intended for Babur. It is during this meeting that Silhadi choose to defect to Babur. Had not for this defection Babur would have been driven out of India even after he won at Panipat.
This shows that I need to read my text books again. From what I gained from reading was only that Babur won this battle here and there and no significant gains were made by Indian rulers against the invaders. I certainly did not know the details of the army commanded by the Rana. Overall, I got the wrong impression that the regional powers were too weak (which I had concluded from the fact that no great counter offensive succeeded).
 
I wouldn't say the Lodhi were inferior in any way, simply at a major disadvantage. The Lodhi at the time were in a growth period and recovering the power of the old Tughluq dynasty of Delhi. Had the Timurid powers in Qabul had not existed or been conquered by the Shaybanids, then the Lodhi could conceivably reconquer the former Tughluq territory and likely deep into Vijaynagaran territory.

Well a factionalized power cannot hope to conquer incredibly internally united and extremely powerful foes like Vijayanagara even if they aspired to reach the status of the Tughlaqs (who themselves were not able to crush the revolt of Harihar Raya and Bukka Raya which led to the foundation of the Vijayanagara Empire ). Even with no Babur you couldn't hope that the Lodhis would overcome Rana Sanga let alone far off Vijayanagara.
 
Hey anyone interested in continuing this discussion. Hoped it would generate some good ideas. It is an extremely important topic which will have wide ranging changes in world history. Hope someone likes to carry this discussion forward.
 
Hey anyone interested in continuing this discussion. Hoped it would generate some good ideas. It is an extremely important topic which will have wide ranging changes in world history. Hope someone likes to carry this discussion forward.
 
I did read in a history book on India, it is in one of the precious threads I've started, the author proposed at the time the various Indian states were solidifying into various nation states with fixed borders. Increased fortification was an example he used. If this had proceeded we may see a very divided India, at least in the North. The Mughal invasion seems to have scrapped this development.
 
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