AHC/WI: Independent Jewish Kingdom/Nation in Europe

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Albert.Nik, Apr 16, 2019 at 11:13 PM.

  1. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist

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    Jews in our timeline lived distributed in Europe in different pockets where they engaged in various traditional occupations,in Europe. What if in this timeline,there was a Jewish Kingdom in Europe that became a modern nation and the Jews,instead of being spread over in different parts of Europe as minorities,live in one Nation as a majority? Smaller communities of Jews would exist in other countries but too small in this timeline and mostly integrated into the majority peoples of the particular country. How would this affect the various economic and cultural aspects in Europe? How would Germany,Poland,Russia,Ukraine look like in this timeline as these are the countries that had the largest Jewish minorities? How would WW2 go about? How would the alternate Business communities look like in these countries? How would the Jewish nation look like,socially and economically and how would it's relations with others be? How would this in modern era be like?
     
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  2. kholieken Well-Known Member

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    Look at fate of Muslim Granada and Pagan Lithuania, no non-christian countries could survive in Europe unless they strong enough to fight half of Europe like Ottoman.
     
  3. Eivind Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a Khazar wank where the Khazars are more successful and manages to convert the East Slavs and the Lithuanians? If we assume that there will still be an invasion by an ATL Djengis Khan, he and his people convert to Judaism and conquers a large part of Europe.
     
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  4. Eivind Well-Known Member

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  5. Jackson Lennock Well-Known Member

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    Menorca historically had a sizable Jewish community. An isolated island becoming a Jewish Polity wouldn't be too difficult.

    The Tsars could decide that rather than have the Pale of Settlement they could opt to stick all of the Jews of the PLC in one place - perhaps Novorossiya which was quite empty and needed settlers.

    Salonika was historically considered a Jewish City. Somebody (Napoleon, Austria, Ottomans?) could decide to establish a Jewish Duchy of Macedonia or something like that with Salonika as its capital.

    The Ottomans put Josef Nasi (a court Jew who almost got a successful jewish settlement in Palestine going) in charge of the Cyclades. Maybe he could organize a movement of Jews to those islands?
     
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  6. Droman الفينيقي

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  7. Eivind Well-Known Member

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  8. Jackson Lennock Well-Known Member

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    Jews love corned beef. Irish love corned beef. Why fight?
     
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  9. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Cyclades... settle the Jews there and you have a vassal Jewish State.

    Khazar Khanate surviving. Unlikely but possible.
     
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  10. Eivind Well-Known Member

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    You mention WW2. Does this mean that you want a POD during or after WW2? You have posted this in "before 1900", but with a POD before 1900, WW2 (and WW1) as we know it would be butterflied away. With a post-WW2 POD, somewhere in Germany would be the obvious choice, although as pointed out by some in this thread, most Jews would probably not want to settle in the designated area if it was behind the iron curtain, so it would have to be in what became West Germany. If so, Schleswig-Holstein might be a good choice, as it had access to the sea.
     
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  11. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist

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    I am looking for this to happen before WW2.
     
  12. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    Balkans or Caucasus would be an interesting setting.
     
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  13. SeaCambrian Well-Known Member

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    Not that unlikely. Sviatoslav's success in invading the region was pretty unprecedented. The core region of the Khazar Khanate was only successfully invaded from the west on two occasions, the fall of the Khazars and Ivan the Terrible's conquest of Astrakhan. Additionally, the Khazars had a unique mix of sedentary and pastoralist organization that was probably long-term the most effective possible government in the Pontic steppe. They were just unfortunate enough to exist at the same time as the Vikings and Pechenegs.
     
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  14. Masked Grizzly Well-Known Member

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    How much of the Caucasus could a surviving Khazar Khanate hold?

    Would it have been possible for them to hold at their maximum extent the area of Adjara, Georgia, northern part of the Azeri territory of Shaki-Zagatala and and Dagestan in the south (or roughly north of any large rivers in the area) and south of the Don and Volga rivers (plus OTL Volga-Don Canal / Don-Volga Portage) in the north?

    Or would it have been more realistic for an ATL surviving Khazar Khanate managing to hold its OTL core territory of North Caucasus up to south of the Don and Volga rivers (plus OTL Volga-Don Canal / Don-Volga Portage) in the north?
     
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  15. sloreck Grunt Bear

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    IMHO unless you have the Jewish kingdom in an area that is difficult to get to or overrun, t won't last. A "Jewish" Thracian area centered around Salonika would still be part of the Ottoman Empire, so you'd eventually get some significant Christian and Moslem population so the Jewishness is diluted. The problem is the other religions in the area are rather aggressively missionizing and have a greater or lesser bone to pick with the Jews, who are not looking for converts in large numbers.
     
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  16. SeaCambrian Well-Known Member

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    The area that a surviving Khazar Khaganate could hold is quite variable. Like a surviving Byzantine Empire or Ottoman Empire, its borders completely depend on the specific timeline that allows it to survive and what kind of foreign powers and alliances it has. I could ultimately see them conquering as much as Russia did in the Caucasus, though.
     
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  17. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist

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    If the Khazars get well lucky,they could hold the Caucasus,Volga Basin,Parts of Pontic Steppes and many parts of Kazakhstan. That could be powerful enough to defend against the Ottomons or the Slavs/Byzantines. But Slavs would be very powerful so some regions could be lost to Slavs. That could be interesting to see a Khazar power defending against the Muslim and Christian powers. But Judaism's ethnic focus could cause them to loose out to Orthodox Christianity if Judaism isn't reformed.
     
  18. Thisisnotausername Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure you could prevent the Jewish diaspora from ever existing without a POD that precludes them from settling in Europe in large numbers in the first place. If you're okay with having the (European) Jewish diaspora exist at some point, as long as it eventually goes away, I can think of a couple of options. You could have some country conquer Europe and then set up a Jewish client state that it deports the continent's Jewish population to for whatever reason (think the Nazi plan to send the Jews to Madagascar, but closer to home and less genocidal in intent). Alternately, you could have Russia concentrate its Jews into a particular area , which subsequently becomes independent as a Jewish-majority state, and then have the rest of the continent swept by a wave of antisemitism that drives most of the European Jewish population to immigrate there.
    These are all contingent on the circumstances of the state and its formation, except for WWII, which is butterflied away by pretty much any pre-1900 POD.
     
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  19. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist

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    Not deported but what if they are motivated amongst themselves to immigrate to a Jewish Kingdom where people follow their religion and social norms everywhere instead of living as minorities amongst people of other religions? You can have two divisions in this. One section is ultra religious and quite indifferent towards patriotism/love for Christian country and the society they live in. Another one is a Secular and a mostly integrated/mixed and quite patriotic section who feel more belonging to the society they live in with many relatives/family members of full or partial Non Jewish origin,for example France,Germany,Poland,Sweden,etc. The first category would probably be tempted to immigrate to the Kingdom/Empire of their own,for example,a surviving Khazar empire. The second category would eventually have a hybrid culture in the next generations and identify as both Secular Jewish.and the nationality/ethnicity they live and have integrated with. For example "I'm a proud Swede by nationality,culture and belonging and a proud Secular Jew". While many ones of the first category could stay back and some of the second category could emigrate for whatever reason,the usual case would be the first wanting to emigrate and join a society of their own and the second wanting to stay back and integrate into the society/nationality they are proud of.

    I'm NOT talking about any type of Ethnic cleansing. I'm talking about how a particular group of a society based on their mindset and requirements would get a desire to emigrate into a nation which has been built since a good amount of time(Medieval era) and run by people they "identify with",I.e other Religious Jews.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019 at 1:16 AM
  20. Thisisnotausername Well-Known Member

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    You neglect the differences that exist between different Jewish cultural groups, such as the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. Imagine that you are an Ashkenazi Jew, living in a Yiddish-speaking community in Central Europe somewhere. Immigrating to, say, a surviving Khazaria means living in a country dominated by your coreligionists (assuming your respective branches of Judaism recognize each other), but it also means moving to a foreign land with a strange language and unfamiliar customs. Even if you do not identify with your German or Polish neighbors, you may still identify as specifically Ashkenazi rather than just Jewish in general, and prefer to live in Ashkenazi communities rather than emigrating to what is very much a foreign country. Now, if you are being persecuted and Khazaria offers you sanctuary, then things are different, but without a compelling reason to move, most people will stay where they are.
    To some extent, yes, but I think you overstate your case somewhat--in particular, I don't really see why these people would abandon their religious observance. One can be both patriotic and an observant member of a religious minority.
    The problem is just that--it has been around for centuries. It is not something like OTL Israel, set up by and for the diaspora, but a foreign nation in its own right, one in which a Jew from another part of Europe is not necessarily at home in just because it is Jewish anymore than a Catholic Briton would be at home in Brazil just because it's Catholic.
     
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