AHC/WI: Hood gets a Golden BB on Bismarck

[Sargon]

I have a feeling this was done years before on warships1 but I cannot remember the finer points of discussions from well over a decade ago!

The intent of this thread is to either mission kill or destroy Bismarck. Mission kill is much more probable than a magazine explosion, but I get the feeling the OP, from the thread title at least, wants to blow Bismarck up just like Hood was blown up by Bismarck.

So perhaps we should approach this by examining if Hood can pull an, er, Hood on Bismarck. For a reverse Hood we would need to determine if it is possible for Hood to penetrate the armour to land a golden twinkee on one of Bismarck's magazines within a few salvoes, just as Bismarck did to Hood. Bismarck's deck armour has been noted as being possible to penetrate, but would the shell get through other stuff to reach the magazine and detonate it, sinking the ship? If it can do so, then even though it's an extremely lucky shot, that would none the less put it within the realms of possibility. I think we may need Nathan Okun's resources to make a start on calculating this.

So, if that is possible, however small, let's go with, "Assuming Hood can get a golden twinkee in and destroys Bismarck, what happens later on?".

As for that, she may have had a chance to go into a much needed refit, but there's still a fairly reasonable chance she winds up in action elsewhere because the RN may be under wartime pressure to keep her in service before that can happen. So it is possible she gets sunk off Malaya as Repulse's replacement as mentioned by jsb.


Sargon

 

[Alcatur]

So perhaps we should approach this by examining if Hood can pull an, er, Hood on Bismarck. For a reverse Hood we would need to determine if it is possible for Hood to penetrate the armour to land a golden twinkee on one of Bismarck's magazines within a few salvoes, just as Bismarck did to Hood. Bismarck's deck armour has been noted as being possible to penetrate, but would the shell get through other stuff to reach the magazine and detonate it, sinking the ship? If it can do so, then even though it's an extremely lucky shot, that would none the less put it within the realms of possibility. I think we may need Nathan Okun's resources to make a start on calculating this.

But is it even plausible for Bismarck magazines to explode in similar manner to Hoods if they are hit? German handling of explosives appears to be far better that other and I remember no German ship blowing in such manner. During Bismarck last fight there was a number of internal explosions, pretty much everything was hit, but there was no magazine explosion; I remember actually no German ship in WW2 suffering such fate. So I think that, barring any additional information , possibility that Bismarck can at all explode is rather low.

 

[JLBB]

But is it even plausible for Bismarck magazines to explode in similar manner to Hoods if they are hit? German handling of explosives appears to be far better that other and I remember no German ship blowing in such manner. During Bismarck last fight there was a number of internal explosions, pretty much everything was hit, but there was no magazine explosion; I remember actually no German ship in WW2 suffering such fate. So I think that, barring any additional information , possibility that Bismarck can at all explode is rather low.

Scharnhorst exploded, if I remember correctly. Though granted, she was a burning wrack by that time and ate a load of torpedos (9 total?) before blowing up.

 

[King Augeas]

Gneisenau had a magazine blow up after a bomb hit in port too.

It seems likely that Bismarck's magazines were flooded relatively early, after turret hits, after which I don't think there's much chance of getting them to blow up.

 

[King Augeas]

Oh just found this. It's for Tirpitz but I assume Bismarck is basically the same.

The magazine is rather high up, so getting a shell diving under the belt to affect hit looks improbable. However, plunging fire might be able to get through the decks - but that's 6.75" of armour in the way! Even with penetration of the top deck steepening the angle of fall, it looks tricky to get through to the magazine.

But would it need to? Could spalling from a non-penetrating hit set off magazine charges?

 

[Sargon]

But is it even plausible for Bismarck magazines to explode in similar manner to Hoods if they are hit? German handling of explosives appears to be far better that other and I remember no German ship blowing in such manner. During Bismarck last fight there was a number of internal explosions, pretty much everything was hit, but there was no magazine explosion; I remember actually no German ship in WW2 suffering such fate. So I think that, barring any additional information , possibility that Bismarck can at all explode is rather low.

That's why I said "if", and my post focusing on saying we should examine things, because of course, it may very well turn out not to be possible.


Sargon

 

[jsb]

Does it really matter if it cant kill a magazine ? cant you just roll the dice and get 6 and jam a couple of the turrets ? (or go through the face ports ? or the main directors etc.)

Any one of a small unlikely list could swing the battle massively to the 2 GB BBs with Bismarck crippled then the outcome isn't really in question. (apart from does PE make a run for it successfully ?)

JSB

 

[David S Poepoe]

She was in port at Mers-el-Kébir at the time. So it doesn't really count since she wasn't on the open ocean.

And yes, I remember that the US battleships were attacked in port, but they were attacked by aircraft not battleships

Yes, it does count. A battleship kill against a battleship. If you keep qualifying everything you will end up with nothing. Heck, I believe that we probably know who's shells hit the Bretagne. If it was the Hood's then it would be a battlecruiser successfully sinking a battleship, which was later successfully sunk by another battleship.

 

[HMS Warspite]

At Denmark Straight, PoW was hit four times by Bismarck's 15" guns plus several times by PE's 8" and lived to sink under Jap torpedoes months later. Even after absorbing many, many armour penetrating hits from Rodney and KGV, Bismarck refused to sink until torpedoed.

At North Cape, DoY hit the battlecruiser Scharnhorst with thirteen 14" shells, and still she had to be finished off with torpedoes. I don't any better chances of a gunfire sinking in the intended true BB vs. BB match of Tirpitz vs. DoY.

So, IMO, a battleship is perfectly suited for smashing another battleship into a wreck or dockyard queen, but if you want it on the bottom of the sea, you'll need bombs or torpedoes. And in the end, why must the measure of a BB's success be in its ability to sink other BBs? Instead the BB should mission kill its opponent and then leave the crippled carcass to its escorting destroyers to sink.

Technically Scharnhorst was a battleship, not a battlecruiser, as her scale of protection was more than on contemporary foeriegn battleships of her time, at a price of a lesser main armament.

 

[King Augeas]

I'd call Scharnhorst a battleship too, on the basis of armour extent and layout. Hood too. But the Kongos are battlecruisers because the armour is simply too thin, despite their reclassification as battleships, and the Alaskas are just big cruisers.

 

[Johnrankins]

The Bismarck doesn't wind up being the most overrated battleship in history!

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'd call Scharnhorst a battleship too, on the basis of armour extent and layout.

With 11" guns? At what level of sub-battleship armament will you refuse to consider her a battleship? If Scharnhorst was armed with 5" main guns is she still a battleship?

 

[Admiral Halsey]

The Bismarck doesn't wind up being the most overrated battleship in history!

That title is already claimed and belongs to the Yamato and Musashi.

 

[Johnrankins]

That title is already claimed belongs to the Yamato and Musashi.

I concede the point.

 

[jsb]

I concede the point.

Would you want to fight a surface action v Yamato in 1942 in any other ship ?

JSB

 

[voodoomaster]

Hood & POW don't need to get a golden BB in order to sink Bismarck.
They just need to survive and batter her.

Let us assume that for whatever reason the shell that kills hood (we will never truely know what caused the explosion, due to the many theories, the fire caused by PE or the shell from bismarck but for this i am assuming bismarck's 15" in the magazine) was a dud (and POW did have a dud in her when she returned to port)

As such Hood completes the turn and is in the safe zone of her fire, allowing both POW and Hood to contiune to Fire at Bismarck and PE. At this point Norfolk and Suffolk would be able to influence by concentrating on PE if they advanced into range by about 6am.

The battle though would be decided by just after 6am as Hood and POW would break off for a short while to avoid PE's torpedo's and given the state of Hood and if i was Holland i would withdraw and join the cruisers, their job was done. Bismarck is damaged and does not have the range nor the ability to operate at full power and was leaking oil.

All they need to do is Shadow until KGV & Victorious join with them (possibly Rodney if she detached on her own accord) The british would have 1 Battlecruiser, 2 Battleships, 2 Heavy Cruisers an Aircraft carrier and at least 10 destroyers.

Sod Hood getting a golden BB just by surviving and joining POW on the shadow even if slightly damaged they combine to Destroy both Bismarck and PE.

 

[King Augeas]

With 11" guns? At what level of sub-battleship armament will you refuse to consider her a battleship? If Scharnhorst was armed with 5" main guns is she still a battleship?

It's an interesting question and it depends on whether you define "battleship" by armour, armament or intended targets.

She definitely has a battleship's armour scheme and the class, AIUI, was laid down in response to the Dunkerques, which are definitely battleships. The 11" guns are not much smaller than previous German battleship guns, existing 12.6" Italian battleship guns and probably comparable in hitting power too.

 

[Saphroneth]

But is it even plausible for Bismarck magazines to explode in similar manner to Hoods if they are hit? German handling of explosives appears to be far better that other and I remember no German ship blowing in such manner. During Bismarck last fight there was a number of internal explosions, pretty much everything was hit, but there was no magazine explosion; I remember actually no German ship in WW2 suffering such fate. So I think that, barring any additional information , possibility that Bismarck can at all explode is rather low.

The German ships barely even came out of port, so it's not as surprising that they had no magazine explosions. It may be less likely than for some other powers, but it'd only be "implausible" if the German ships were remotely as heavily used as the British BBs.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Would you want to fight a surface action v Yamato in 1942 in any other ship ?

JSB

You've intentionally chosen a narrow time window. Per wiki, Yamato enters full IJN service on May 27, 1942. Nine months later the first Iowa enters USN service.

If you can't wait nine months, then I'd think a North Carolina or SoDak would give a good showing. Tirpitz would likely do okay.

 

[jsb]

You've intentionally chosen a narrow time window. Per wiki, Yamato enters full IJN service on May 27, 1942. Nine months later the first Iowa enters USN service.

If you can't wait nine months, then I'd think a North Carolina or SoDak would give a good showing. Tirpitz would likely do okay.

I just went for 42 as I don't want allied radar tech to distort the result.(and as IJN crews got much worse in comparison to others later on)

I don't see on average Tirpitz, North Carolina or SoDak (or even Iowa) wining 1 on 1 with 9 18 inch guns (yes Yamato isn't a efficient use of 65,000t but I don't think its that bad that it will lose till you fight it with radars/airpower).

JSB