AHC & WI: Holy French Empire

Hello Everyone. I'm a long time lurker but recently I had an idea I've never seen on the boards before and I decided to share it. I'm not well versed in French history so I apologize if this is ASB. During the middle ages many French dukes seem to have more power than the King of France controlling both more land and having more influence. In this environment it seems like the political situation could easily turn into something similar to the Holy Roman Empire. So your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have most of medieval France participating in something resembling the Holy Roman Empires political system.
 
Well back during the early medieval period France was an elective monarchy for a while IIRC but the kings simply had their sons elected as their successor during their reign so it stayed in the family. If you want a HRE type set up then you need to stop the French kings from getting the nobility under their control and expanding the crown land, and get the nobles to put the kibosh on electing a successor until after the current monarch had died. For electors you have the ready made Peerage of France as a possible starting point. How you achieve that I'm not qualified to say. :)
 
Possible electorates: Aquitaine, Normandy, Orléans, Flanders, Anjou.

If the Norman conquest isn't butterflied away the Normans could get themselves elected freuquently and thus becoming TTL version of the Habsburgs.
 
Well back during the early medieval period France was an elective monarchy for a while IIRC but the kings simply had their sons elected as their successor during their reign so it stayed in the family. If you want a HRE type set up then you need to stop the French kings from getting the nobility under their control and expanding the crown land, and get the nobles to put the kibosh on electing a successor until after the current monarch had died. For electors you have the ready made Peerage of France as a possible starting point. How you achieve that I'm not qualified to say. :)

Well, you could have a series of somewhat unlucky kings whose sons all either die before they do or are never born. Thus, the elections are actually strongly contested, and so hereditary inheritance doesn't get entrenched.
 
SavoyTruffle said:
Possible electorates: Aquitaine, Normandy, Orléans, Flanders, Anjou.

France originally had twelve peers who "elected" (until Philip Augustus) the next King of France. It was generally a formality, as the next King was crowned during the lifetime of his predecessor and was generally the eldest son of the current King. Among those twelve peers, half were laïc and half were ecclesiastics. They were:
-The Duke of Burgundy
-The Duke of Aquitaine
-The Duke of Normandy
-The Count of Flanders
-The Count of Champagne
-The Count of Toulouse
-The Archbishop of Rheims
-The Bishop of Langres
-The Bishop of Beauvais
-The Bishop of Laon
-The Bishop of Châlons
-The Bishop of Noyons

Other major nobles that could become Electors of this "Holy Roman Empire of the French Nation" could be the Duke of Britanny, the Count of Barcelona (if it doesn't secceed from France like OTL), the Count of Anjou, the Count of Blois or the Count of Vermandois for the laïc peers and the Archbishop of Paris among the ecclesiastical ones.

However, to avoid that, I think we need a "failed Capetian France" scenario. Though weak in their early years, the Capetians managed to secure their hold on France and destroyed the powers of other nobles. They also manage to secure election up until Philip II Augustus, who became so powerful his son Louis VIII didn't require election to claim the French crown: it's thanks to this we've had Capetians rulers in France from 987 up until 1789 and the short 1814/1815-1848 period (the Valois, the Bourbon and the Orléans being all cadet branches of the Capetians).
I thus see the following possibilities to end up with HRE-esque France:
-Louis V of France, last Carolingian King, not dying from a horse fall in 987. There are chances the Carolingian family would not die out with him, and this could lead to further weakening of Royal Power. Even if a Robertian/Capetian ends up with the crown when the last Carolingian dies, Royal Control might be so weak we end up with a HRE-France.
-Hugh Capet dying before 987. The probable elected King would thus probably be Otto or Eudes-Henri, who were weaker than their brother and died childless OTL. They could also elect a stronger noble.
-Robert II dying childless: besides Robert II, Hugh Capet only had daughters. This leaves room for possible contestants.
 
Adûnakhôr said:
seriously, they "elected"? An election. Didn't think the French were that simple.
was it like a HRE 'election?'

Technically, France was de jure an elective Monarchy from the late IXth Century-early Xth Century up to 1180. However, it was generally de facto an Hereditary Monarchy as the eldest son of the current King was generally chosen to be the next and crowned during the lifetime of his father. Officially, the heir was co-King with his father, but in reality the eldest King was the true one, much like the Holy Roman Emperor/King of the Romans thing.

Here is a timelines of the elections to the French crown :

884: Death of Carloman II of France. His successor should be his brother Charles the Simple, but he is only 5. The nobles chose to give the crown to Charles the Fat, Holy Roman Emperor at the time.

887/888: Charles the Fat is declared unapt (I think) to bear the French crown. Charles the Simple is still too young, so the Nobles chose to elect the Count of Paris, Odo, as King of France.

898: Odo dies, but names Charles the Simple as his successor: he becomes Charles III of France.

922: Charles III of France is overthrown by the nobles who elected Odo of Paris' brother, Robert I, as King of France. Charles III, however, does not surrender and assembles his forces.

923: Charles III and Robert I's armies confront near Soissons. Charles III is defeated and captured, but Robert I is also killed in battle. The nobles propose the French crown to Robert's son, Hugh the Great, but he refuses it. They thus choose the husband of Robert's daughter Emma, Rudolph of Burgundy, to become King of France.

936: Rudolph of France dies childless. The crown is proposed to Hugh the Great once again, but he refuses once more and push for the recall of the eldest son of Charles III, Louis, who is in exile in England. Following this, Louis IV "from Overseas" is crowned King of France.

At some point during his reign, Louis IV had his son, Lothaire, crowned as co-King of France to ensure he became heir to the Throne.

954: Death of Louis IV of France. Lothair becomes sole King of France.

At some point during his reign, Lothair had his son, Louis, crowned as co-King of France.

986: Lohair of France dies. His son, Louis V, becomes sole King of France.

987: Louis V of France accidentally kills himself. Since he died childless, his heir by hereditary succession should be his cousin Charles of Lower Lotharingia. The latter being unpopular, the nobles choose Hugh Capet, son of Hugh the Great, to become King of France.

December 30, 987: Robert, son of Hugh Capet, is elected and crowned co-King of France to ensure his succession.

October 24, 996: Hugh Capet dies. Robert II of France is sole King.

June 19, 1017: Hugh Magnus, eldest son of Robert II of France, is elected and crowned as co-King of France.

Septermber 17, 1025: Death of Hugh Magnus, co-King of France.

May 14, 1027: Henri, second son of Robert II of France, is elected and crowned as co-King of France.

July 20, 1031: Death of Robert II of France. Henri I is sole King of France.

May 23, 1059: Philippe, eldest son of Henri I of France, is elected and crowned co-King of France.

August 4, 1060: Death of Henri I of France. Philippe I is sole King. Being minor (he is barely 8), Philippe is under the regency of his mother Anne of Kiev in his early years.

July 29, 1108 : Death of Philippe I of France. He is succeeded by his eldest son, Louis VI of France. [Note that Louis VI wasn't elected co-King]

April 14, 1129:
Philippe, eldest son of Louis VI, is elected and crowned as co-King of France.

October 13, 1131: Philippe, co-King of France, accidentally kills himself.

October 25, 1131: Louis, second son of Louis VI, is elected and crowned as co-King of France.

August 1, 1137: Death of Louis VI of France. His son Louis VII is sole ruler.

November 1, 1179: Philippe, only son of Louis VII, is elected and crowned as co-King of France. He will be the last one to ever be elected.

September 18, 1180: Death of Louis VII of France. Philippe II is sole ruler.

July 14, 1223: Death of Philippe II Augustus, King of France. The succession goes to his eldest son, Louis VIII, who hasn't be crowned co-King during his father lifetime (as was usual before). From this moment on, the succession to the French throne will be hereditary for more than six centuries (up until 1830, not counting the 1792-1815 gap).

You might say it's only co-Kingship, but from what I understood, even if de facto hereditary, the designation of the King was de jure elective.
 
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