AHC/WI: German India

So, what if India is the crown jewel an alternate German colonial empire? How to make this happen? And what are the effects of this in (alternate) world history?
 
I dont see how its possible, considering the fact that by the time Germany even existed, India was firmly in the grasp of the British.
You need a POD far back as say the India Trade company to accomplish your challenge and that may by itself change the entire landscape/feasibility of colonialism entirely
 
Most recent POD to do this you'd have to have the Dutch fulfill the role the English did in India, and then have the Dutch join the German Empire (probably not going to be the same as the Hohenzollern one OTL) and their colonial holdings transferred likewise.

Outside of that, you have the key issue of the lack of German colonial power. Maybe prevent the breakup of Saxony, and have Saxony go on to be a major colonial power and eventually part of a German Empire? But that's a POD back in the 12th century, so who knows what might happen then.
 
You need a German polity that can seriously project power over the seas. IMO that means a polity that has a centre of cultural and political gravity at or near the Lower Rhine / North Sea Coast.

You might be able to do something with a (Bavaria-)Straubing-Holland, that does not disintegrate, but inherits other Lower Frankish areas and important parts of the palatinate, to get a Rhine-based centre.

609px-Map_Bavaria-Straubing_-_Karte_Straubing-Holland.png



The other idea, but extremely unlikely would be this:

1. An English company colonizes India.
2. A German dynasty is chosen as the protestant ruling house by the same bourgeois class that would control the colonial company.
3. With French help, a Catholic pretender seizes Power in England
4. The Governor and Directors of said company remain loyal to the ousted protestant king, even if he resides back home in his German homeland.
5. Over time, the rich pepperbags of ~Hamburg invest heavily in the company, impoverished German mercenaries are hired to defend company property in India and so on. Gradually, the people running things in the colonies are rather recruited from Germany then from England.
 
Burgundy remains independent of Habsburgs and the Ducal House is elected HRE and manages to stay HRE, eventually unifying all OTL of Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg and the Netherlands, eventually becoming "Germany". They have various trading posts in India before driving out the French and eventually completely taking control.
 
As Intransigent Southerner said, domination of India isn't really certain.

Anyways, to not be just a dick ;). Your best better is the whatever rules "Germany" has access to the Atlantic. You can find this in the Habsburgs, simple block their way to Spain (John of Asturias or Miguel da Paz survives), Philip (now HRE Philip II) moves the Habsburg core lands from Austria to the Netherlands and later joins the colonial adventures on the East.
 
Yet absolutely nobody has discussed the Indian side of the equation of "how to make it happen."

The Indian side is probably going to have to be a combo of allying with various states and pure luck in larger Indian states decaying while European tech eventually outpaces Indian tech. I don't think it's as simple as "throw all the Germans into India" and see what comes out.
 
The Indian side is probably going to have to be a combo of allying with various states and pure luck in larger Indian states decaying while European tech eventually outpaces Indian tech.

Our hypothetical German state would be unable to project power on a level equal to the EIC and would be facing greater European competition (the British, for one). And European and Indian tech were roughly equal in the Second Anglo-Mysorean War, for example. As for "larger Indian states decaying," that is essentially OTL (with added immense luck via the Afghan-Maratha war that may have saved British Bengal) and yet the British still faced dynamic states that replaced the decaying ones.

So I would say "any Western European nation could do what the EIC did" is pure fantasy and how exactly this German polity conquers India must be carefully justified.
 
Our hypothetical German state would be unable to project power on a level equal to the EIC and would be facing greater European competition (the British, for one). And European and Indian tech were roughly equal in the Second Anglo-Mysorean War, for example. As for "larger Indian states decaying," that is essentially OTL (with added immense luck via the Afghan-Maratha war that may have saved British Bengal) and yet the British still faced dynamic states that replaced the decaying ones.

So I would say "any Western European nation could do what the EIC did" is pure fantasy and how exactly this German polity conquers India must be carefully justified.

Given an early enough POD there is no guarantee that the British would even exist (Could be Independent England, Wales, Scotland, etc). If the POD is pre 1500s and you have Burgundy or the Habsburgs ruling out of the Low Countries (and devoid of Spain) they might be able to project themselves competitively in India.

And I did say they would have to be lucky to actually conquer India. Hell, maybe "German India" is just a bunch of trade agreements between the German state and Indian states that favor the Germans over other Europeans. Maybe a German prince marries an Indian princess and helps her father unite India under the father's rule, thus leading to a very pro German India.
 
Yet absolutely nobody has discussed the Indian side of the equation of "how to make it happen."

Probably because nobody has even discussed the German side of "how to conquer India" as well. We have only speculated how there might be a "germany" that is in the position to have a fleet and interests in overseas.

It is a bit like "Make Switzerland defeat the US Navy in the North Atlantic". Unless you find a way to give Switzerland a port and a blue water navy, you really don't have to think about the USN order of battle.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Does it have to be before 1900?

So, what if India is the crown jewel an alternate German colonial empire? How to make this happen? And what are the effects of this in (alternate) world history?

Does it have to be before 1900?

And how "German" does this German empire have to be?

Best,
 
You cannot know this. It all depends on the answer to the question "What even *is* Germany in this TL?" How many people and how many ports does it control? How centrlized is it?

Assuming a POD not before 1500 and a Germanity similar to OTL's, simple geography would suggest that OTL England/Britain would project power better than ATL Germany polity, unless it's heavily wanked. Also as a whole Germany in the 18th century was economically less developed than Britain.
 
So, what if India is the crown jewel an alternate German colonial empire? How to make this happen? And what are the effects of this in (alternate) world history?

Don't forget that in obsolete German usage,
Vorderindien contained Pak, Ind, Ban, Nep, and Sri, while
Hinterindien ("Farther India") was Myan, Thai, Viet, Camb, Laos and Malaya.
Inselindien was Indonesia, insular Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines.

The three parts together were Ostindien, with Westindien being the Caribbean.

L1233.jpg


So, lots of Indias to somehow fulfill the OP conditions ... :D

Who knows. With the silver of Potosi remaining undiscovered for longer, the trans-Pacific trade never takes off, so the Philippines are less important for Spain and one Habsburg grants them to the Austrian cousins.

Or we take the old "Germany takes French Indochina in 1871" idea.
 
Assuming a POD not before 1500 and a Germanity similar to OTL's, simple geography would suggest that OTL England/Britain would project power better than ATL Germany polity, unless it's heavily wanked. Also as a whole Germany in the 18th century was economically less developed than Britain.

Within these parameters, you are completely correct. But you are the first to pin them down this way, so you cannot expect other posters to work within the limits of your individual idea how the TL should look like.
 
Assuming a POD not before 1500 and a Germanity similar to OTL's, simple geography would suggest that OTL England/Britain would project power better than ATL Germany polity, unless it's heavily wanked. Also as a whole Germany in the 18th century was economically less developed than Britain.

Which probably rules out a later POD? What about one not later than the era of Henry the Lion (though doesn't necessarily have to involve him).

But this is a very hard challenge. It would basically mean:
1. Everything or almost everything goes right for *Saxony.
2. Saxony devotes a lot of effort to colonialism, where again, everything or most everything goes right. And early on, their effort is directed to India for some reason.
3. India has horrible, horrible, horrible luck on all parts, where everything in the long run seems to back up the Saxon power in the end.

I guess that's hypothetically plausible because you aren't breaking physical laws, but that particular chain of events over the course of at least 7 centuries really does stretch the limits. But if I were an observer in 1000 AD, I probably wouldn't expect those other Saxons in England would one day rule India either.
 
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