AHC/WI: Faster Nelson class?

Are there enough second hand 7.5in guns to be of any real use on new cruisers?
7.5"/45 Mk I production reached all of 33 guns including prototypes, four lost with HMS Hampshire.
the Mark III and IVs reach all of 32 guns produced, of which 14 were lost aboard HMS Triumph off Gallipoli, one aboard M21 in the Channel, one aboard M25 scuttled in the Dvina river.
the 7.5"/50 Mk II and Mk V had production runs of 21 (plus 14 coast defence guns) and 40 respectively, of which four lost aboard HMS Warrior at Jutland, another four likely lost when HMS Natal blew up in port, 10 lost with HMS Defence at Jutland

That gives us a total of 29 Mk Is + 16 Mk III/IVs + 43 Mk II/Vs without factoring in any guns being too worn out for further service; repurposed for coast defence; used as test articles and similar. Assuming nine guns per new build cruiser (say 8 mounted plus 1 in the spares pool per ship), the Mark Is could potentially equip three cruisers; the Mark III/IVs a single ship and the Mark II/Vs four cruisers.

So, utter best case you can provide for less than half of the OTL County class program. In a only marginally insane case (discard the Mk Is and Mk II/Vs), you can only fit out four ships... And you're probably gonna need to design new mountings as the single mounts off the armoured cruisers were limited to 15 degrees of elevation, constraining range to about 14000m vs the about 28000m of the 8" guns mounted on OTL County class. Using an Italian 7.5" gun of similar vintage as a proxy improved elevation might enable you to extend the 7.5" range out to about 22000m.

There might be some argument for continued 7.5"/45 Mark VI production instead of switching to an 8" gun, but you'll still probably want a new turret design, meaning you're copping a lot of the cost of moving to 8" anyway.
 
One of the conclusions that the RN made from WW1 and examination of German guns was that lighter shells and higher velocity increased the 'danger zone' for the target making hits more likely. As this was the opposite of pre-War RN thinking then all new guns in the 1920's is a given.

A great slab on the post war direction of RN cruisers and the influences (Source Friedman, Norman. British Cruisers: Two World Wars and After). Note that 9.2" doesn't seem to have been considered.

In January 1920 in Washington, the American Admiral Mayo explained to Dreyer that in his opinion nothing smaller could carry enough fuel to be of much use in the Pacific. The General Board, responsible for formulating US Navy programmes, recommended that year that thirty such cruisers, armed with 8in guns, be built over the next three years. The US government was unenthusiastic, and even a scaled-down plan for five cruisers in 1921 failed, but clearly future US light cruisers would be 10,000-tonners. The US Navy was reportedly planning to mount ten 8in guns in the planned ships (which seemed to be too much on that displacement). The Japanese had already announced plans for four cruisers of over 7,000 tons (the Furutakas). No details were known.

Dreyer suggested that former German officers and the French gave some pointers towards the future. To the Germans, their wartime Köln class (about 5,500 tons, eight 5.9in guns, 28.5kts) was too slow and too large for the fleet and too small for foreign service. They violated the cardinal rule that ships of inferior fighting power should be fast enough to escape superior ships. The first requirement for a ‘foreign service’ cruiser stated in 1917 was the ability to keep the sea. Speed should be 25kts for long periods and 26-29kts for short ones, to run down and examine fast merchant ships and to avoid the enemy. Guns should be 6.7in or 7.5in; the proposed armament was eight such guns in twin turrets. Torpedoes were desirable. The ship should be armoured against 6in fire. The original proposal was for 12,000 tons, but the Kaiser considered that too small and recommended 14,000 tons.

According to the Naval Attaché in Paris, Admiral Grasset argued that since the Versailles Treaty limited the Germans (still the main enemy) to 10,000 tons, France should go one better with 10,000 tons and 7in or 8in guns. No such ships had yet been ordered. Dreyer considered the French reasoning vicious, because it would start an upward spiral of cruiser development which would prevent the Royal Navy from building enough such ships (he regretted the Hawkins class, which had started the process). Overall, it was clear that cruisers were tending towards 10,000 tons.

Ideally the Royal Navy would build somewhat smaller ships in larger numbers. The places to cut would be torpedo tubes (not needed in a trade-protection cruiser) and side protection against 6in guns (it would suffice to provide a protective deck of moderate thickness).32 In any case, enough armour to defeat 7.5in or 8in guns would add prohibitive weight. Presumably torpedo tubes could be fitted if the cruiser was needed for fleet work.

As a gunner, Dreyer advocated the 8in gun because engagements would probably be fought at extreme range, and because effective range depended on the ability to observe the fall of shot. Although a 6in gun could range out to 20,000yds, only the splashes of the larger 7.5in and 8in shells could be spotted reliably at such ranges.33 Recent trials suggested, moreover, that a well-designed enemy light cruiser could not be stopped by 6in fire. Dreyer preferred the 8in gun to the 7.5in because it offered superior penetration and bursting effect for a small increase in weight. He hoped that a power-operated 8in mounting could fire five rounds per gun per minute. Ships would have no secondary LA armament, but should have four 4in HA guns for anti-aircraft and star shell. They would also need automatic weapons to counter torpedo planes and distance-controlled boats, both of which Dreyer claimed the US Navy was developing.34 Two of the multiple pompoms then being proposed by the Naval Anti-Aircraft Committee seemed adequate. Any such ship should carry one or more amphibious aircraft (Dreyer recalled the wartime German raider Wolf, which had one such aircraft). Dreyer envisaged a revolving flying-off platform for an amphibious aircraft and a crane to hoist it in. The aircraft would be used for both reconnaissance and spotting. Since the cruisers would operate mainly in the tropics, they should have improved ventilation arrangements and a magazine cooling plant.

On this basis Dreyer suggested five alternatives:
A: 10,000 tons, 31kts, eight 8in twin splinter-proof on centreline.
B: 8,500 tons, 32kts, five 8in single splinter proof on centreline.
C: 7,500 tons, 35kts, four 8in single splinter-proof on centreline.
D: 7,500 tons, 32kts, four 8in single splinter-proof on centreline.
E: 7,500 tons, 25kts, four 8in single splinter-proof on centreline.

Design A would counter the projected US 10,000-ton cruisers, if British finances permitted (the 7,050-ton Omahas would, however, outrun them). It would not be desirable to go below 7,500 tons, ‘as this is the smallest size now advocated by other countries’. Director of Plans protested that existing Japanese cruisers were much smaller, but for Dreyer the problem was what was coming, not what already existed. No 6in cruiser could effectively fight an 8in cruiser. Dreyer preferred a 7,500-tonner armed with four centreline 8in guns (he was willing to accept 7.5in if DNC could not provide power hoists and power ramming while providing the desired endurance, maximum speed, and other items on the tonnage [i.e. on a limited cost]). The armament decision seemed urgent, if a concrete plan was to be presented to the Imperial Conference. Dreyer particularly cautioned that the Dominion governments should not be misled into imagining that they were being asked for nothing more than the wartime fleet cruisers. However, he also feared that buying cruisers comparable to the largest ones being planned abroad might (as with the Hawkins class) lead other navies to build even larger ships. Hence his preference for the four-gun 7,500-tonner. He also warned that, given his own experience over the last seven years, it might be some years before any Dominion ordered a new light cruiser. He did not make the implication explicit: some or all of those trade protection ships would have to come out of Royal Navy funds. Of the alternatives listed, C to E differed in endurance and protection. Cruiser E was a minimum ship for convoy protection, but she would be unable to attack or run down enemy cruisers. In effect Dreyer had described the next step in cruiser development.
DCNS agreed that any new trade protection light cruisers would have to be armed with (at least) 7.5in guns, and would probably be comparable to the big Hawkins type. He doubted that a ship of smaller displacement could combine sufficient radius of action and armament.

The problem was numbers. In July 1918, when practically all trade between North America and Europe was being convoyed, as well as a proportion of vessels outward bound to North America, and ships operating between Great Britain and Sierra Leone and Dakar, convoys required no fewer than seventy ocean escorts, including cruisers, armed merchant cruisers and commissioned escort ships. A worldwide convoy system would have required about 150 ocean escorts (apart from ASW ships in local escort groups). The most powerful potential Japanese raiders were the four Kongo class battlecruisers, which could be contained only by their British equivalents. For this reason the Royal Navy periodically considered stationing some or all of its battlecruisers in the Far East (a plan to this effect was nearly put into effect in 1929). However, a smaller number of unusually powerful British cruisers working with convoys could make Japanese attacks on convoys too risky. To attack Empire commerce, any Japanese cruisers would have to operate far from their bases; even limited damage might prove fatal (as was the case with the German Admiral Graf Spee in 1939). The wartime ‘large light cruisers’ (Courageous class) might be a useful model for future construction. In the past cruiser size had been held down to make it possible to build such ships in quantity, particularly for fleet operations. However, the fleet might need fewer cruisers if the promise of carrier-borne reconnaissance aircraft was realised. Five Courageous-class cruisers would cost about as much as eight Hawkins.

ACNS suggested (and DCNS agreed) to ask DNC to consider two alternatives. One would be a 33kt 10,000-tonner armed with 7.5in or 8in guns, without torpedo tubes, and otherwise as Dreyer had proposed. Endurance would be 5,500nm at 16kts, and in contrast to the wartime Hawkins, the ship would burn only oil fuel. The second would have much the same characteristics, but with more powerful (preferably 10in) guns, and magazines protected against 8in fire. Maximum displacement would be 15,000 tons. DCNS added that the term Commerce Protection Cruiser should be dropped in favour of some alternative, preferably Station Cruiser – which would recall the much earlier practice of keeping powerful armoured cruisers on the foreign stations, for presence as well as for trade protection. The Dominions should want a ship which could go anywhere and fight anything short of a battlecruiser.

DNC could not produce the desired pair of designs, because his department was fully occupied producing the new battleship and battle-cruiser designs as well as other vital work (including the cruiser-sized minelayer described in the Appendix and the flush-deck carrier conversion of HMS Furious), but he produced some quick estimates.35 His main conclusion was that the Staff had grossly underestimated what was needed to achieve either the desired speed or the desired endurance. For example, using lightweight (‘E’ class) machinery, an enlarged Hawkins (11,000 tons) might make 31kts. To achieve the desired endurance, the ship would have to be lengthened to about 600ft (about 12,000 tons). To make 33kts, she would need about 30 per cent more power (using lightweight machinery, about 12,500 tons). To provide deck space for the amphibian, she would have to concentrate her armament (six rather than seven 7.5in) in three twin turrets; without the amphibian she could probably have another pair of such guns. The proposed 10in ship would probably be about the size of HMS Courageous (19,000 tons).
 
Because with the 9.2-inch you need a bigger and more expensive ship, you'd need new turret designs and to fit a decent number of guns (IE 8) with the speed, range and other requirements the RN wanted for its large cruisers, you're probably looking at a 14 - 16k ton ship that'll be longer and beamier than the Counties.
 
Basically weight. Inter war the RN moved to full built up guns with significant weight savings. Even the 16" on the Nelsons were a halfway step.
My question is were the RN able to re-sleeve the guns, which was a possibility I believe with barrels after heavy use, especially with limited numbers produced?
 
My question is were the RN able to re-sleeve the guns, which was a possibility I believe with barrels after heavy use, especially with limited numbers produced?
The British made 29 guns and definately did reline the barrels. It is discussed on the Navweaps site in reference to two kinds of rifling and as the war went on the turrets got guns with different rifling.
 
I can't believe I didn't spot this thread months ago. I can't get the Nelsons to 28 knots - and they don't need to be that fast. From an early 1920s perspective, the key would be estimating the top speed of Japan's Nagato class (which turned out to be 26.75 knots). Nagato details were shrouded in secrecy, but they looked for all the world like 16 inch Queen Elizabeths - usefully faster than the 23 knots becoming common for battleships.

So, can the Nelsons get to 26 knots?

First, as others have pointed out, the Nelsons were underweight, so we can add 1000 tons by running as close as possible to Treaty limits. Some of that would go to a slightly larger hull, the rest to machinery.

Second, make B turret a twin. This reduces main armament to 8 guns - the equal of Japanese and US rivals. It also makes B turret about 400 tons lighter (navweaps reckons the 3 gun turret was 1480 tons. Reducing this to 2 guns saves less than a third of 1480 tons). Furthermore, fewer 16 inch shells are needed, the B turret magazine is smaller, B turret (being lighter) requires less hull structure to support it. Reducing B turret to a twin reduces total main armament weight by up to 9% and could reduce total displacement by up to 4.5%. (I can't remember where, but I did read that, when designing the Invincible battlecruisers, the British determined that reducing Dreadnought's main armament from 5 turrets to 4 - a 20% reduction - would free up 2000 tons - 11% of Dreadnought's original displacement. From this we may infer that reducing a design's main armament weight to a certain percentage of the original reduces the final displacement to the square root of that percentage).

Reducing B turret to a twin frees up about 1500 tons of displacement.

If we need more than this 2500 extra tons, find ways to reduce the number of secondary turrets to 5 and the main armour belt by 1/2 inch.

This should be enough extra displacement plus savings to install lots more machinery - now totalling maybe 80,000 (25+knots) to 90,000 (26+knots) horsepower.
 
I can't believe I didn't spot this thread months ago. I can't get the Nelsons to 28 knots - and they don't need to be that fast. From an early 1920s perspective, the key would be estimating the top speed of Japan's Nagato class (which turned out to be 26.75 knots). Nagato details were shrouded in secrecy, but they looked for all the world like 16 inch Queen Elizabeths - usefully faster than the 23 knots becoming common for battleships.

So, can the Nelsons get to 26 knots?

First, as others have pointed out, the Nelsons were underweight, so we can add 1000 tons by running as close as possible to Treaty limits. Some of that would go to a slightly larger hull, the rest to machinery.

Second, make B turret a twin. This reduces main armament to 8 guns - the equal of Japanese and US rivals. It also makes B turret about 400 tons lighter (navweaps reckons the 3 gun turret was 1480 tons. Reducing this to 2 guns saves less than a third of 1480 tons). Furthermore, fewer 16 inch shells are needed, the B turret magazine is smaller, B turret (being lighter) requires less hull structure to support it. Reducing B turret to a twin reduces total main armament weight by up to 9% and could reduce total displacement by up to 4.5%. (I can't remember where, but I did read that, when designing the Invincible battlecruisers, the British determined that reducing Dreadnought's main armament from 5 turrets to 4 - a 20% reduction - would free up 2000 tons - 11% of Dreadnought's original displacement. From this we may infer that reducing a design's main armament weight to a certain percentage of the original reduces the final displacement to the square root of that percentage).

Reducing B turret to a twin frees up about 1500 tons of displacement.

If we need more than this 2500 extra tons, find ways to reduce the number of secondary turrets to 5 and the main armour belt by 1/2 inch.

This should be enough extra displacement plus savings to install lots more machinery - now totalling maybe 80,000 (25+knots) to 90,000 (26+knots) horsepower.
Maybe drop an inch or two in Main armament. Say 14 inches. Makes the ship lighter and may be adding in length to the ship.
 
Could pull what the USN did with the Lexingtons to get the tonnage albeit might be best only to say use half of it since one its way less obvious and leaves room for upgrades while the treaties are in force . Probably can even fix the flaws made by making the turrets and hull/fittings lighter than ideal to save weight to boot and perhaps add a couple more 4.7" mounts. And maybe a slightly deeper armor belt. Also the whole if the Nelson's are going faster their hulls would be more optimized for that speed. Even still anything above 27 knots or really 25 would be pushing it unless they're fitted for but not with a 2 to 4 boilers including the turbines being rated for that extra power as the good Dr. Alexander Clarke as mentioned a few times since that's not nearly as hard to add as more/new turbines . Mind you given the event of otl if Rodney has that speed she might be able to gank of one the twins as she ran for her life from her due to Rodney pushing her engines all but to the breaking point and exceeding her design speed by around 1.5 to 2 knots when the Germans noticed her while at cruising speed. As it was in otl they got within like 3K yards of max gun range. Add that extra speed...well Rodney might get in range and perhaps deep enough in into it to score slowing hits and not do serious pain to her engines to do it.
 
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Second, make B turret a twin. This reduces main armament to 8 guns - the equal of Japanese and US rivals. It also makes B turret about 400 tons lighter (navweaps reckons the 3 gun turret was 1480 tons. Reducing this to 2 guns saves less than a third of 1480 tons). Furthermore, fewer 16 inch shells are needed, the B turret magazine is smaller, B turret (being lighter) requires less hull structure to support it. Reducing B turret to a twin reduces total main armament weight by up to 9% and could reduce total displacement by up to 4.5%. (I can't remember where, but I did read that, when designing the Invincible battlecruisers, the British determined that reducing Dreadnought's main armament from 5 turrets to 4 - a 20% reduction - would free up 2000 tons - 11% of Dreadnought's original displacement. From this we may infer that reducing a design's main armament weight to a certain percentage of the original reduces the final displacement to the square root of that percentage).

Reducing B turret to a twin frees up about 1500 tons of displacement.
The juice probably isn't worth the squeeze, IMO. The problems the Nelson-class' turrets experienced showed that there was not enough design resources made available to them; having to design a new twin on top of the triples may not be possible.

Maybe drop an inch or two in Main armament. Say 14 inches. Makes the ship lighter and may be adding in length to the ship.
Politically untenable. The entire point of the Nelsons was to get 16" guns deployed to match the Nagato and Colorado classes.
 
I think that I read somewhere that the Nelsons were shorter than ideal to keep the weight within treaty limits.
 
The problems the Nelson-class' turrets experienced showed that there was not enough design resources made available to them; having to design a new twin on top of the triples may not be possible.

That is the KGVs in the 30s.
For the Nelsons in the early 20s the issue is weight saving measures. Lighter materials, reducing the number of (from memory) charge hoists. They also went to a German style high velocity weapon based on a misreading of post war testing, that didn't really work out for them due to barrel wear.
 
Now your challenge is to give a way for the NelRod's to reach a top speed of 28 knots, the same as the KGV's.
I think it would be enough to give the NelRod's a designed top speed of 25 knots to match the Q.E's. They proved they could do it in an emergency anyway, but at the cost of ruining their engines. Have them able to do that normally and the emergency ruin the engine speed is likely to be about 27 knots. Now how to raise the speed by 2 knots? Higher pressure boilers, different gearing on the prop shafts, a different prop design?
 
Actually i would imagine the best way to have the Nelsons able to keep pace with newer and faster ships would be to build more aircraft carriers and fill them with torpedo and dive bombers.Worked in otl when enough planes were available.
 
Iirc that was due to the structural limitations and designs on the ships themselves then the actual gun turrets. If a full blown un-naval treaty restricted G3 battlecruiser had been built the guns would not have been blowing urinals off the bulkheads and other superficial damage; since now the ship structure and design was not compromised for treaty restrictions. At least that what I’ve read around on the internet .
Your correct about the treaty limitations limiting structural strength, but the guns were still unreliable. Her gun turrets were the first triples the RN used, and they didn't work out very well.
 
I think it would be enough to give the NelRod's a designed top speed of 25 knots to match the Q.E's. They proved they could do it in an emergency anyway, but at the cost of ruining their engines. Have them able to do that normally and the emergency ruin the engine speed is likely to be about 27 knots. Now how to raise the speed by 2 knots? Higher pressure boilers, different gearing on the prop shafts, a different prop design?
Being able to lift from 23 to 25 knots requires a lot less additional power than going from 25 to 27 knots; the drag caused by wave formation rises by the square, I think, and the power required to increase speed rises by much more than a linear manner.
 
Actually i would imagine the best way to have the Nelsons able to keep pace with newer and faster ships would be to build more aircraft carriers and fill them with torpedo and dive bombers.Worked in otl when enough planes were available.

??? How do you do that when the treaty restrictions are in force, the RAF gets to tell you that you'll only get a handful of aircraft, and the defence budget is restricted?

The full cost of buying and running a Nelson class was only 80% of buying and running an Illustrious class with 36 aircraft, allowing for each plane to last five years, according to Chatfield's figures in 1938. He allowed 414,000 GBP per year for aircraft replacement. That seems to account for the fact that putting 36 aircraft on a carrier does not mean just paying for 36 planes - it requires reserves, training aircraft, OTU-style aircraft, and the very high general maintenance costs. That means that even in 1938, each year the planes for an Illustrious class cost as much to run as six fleet destroyers did.

Chatfield's figures indicate that you could run 61 naval aircraft for the cost of running a battleship. The RN and RAF agreed at about the same time that you could run just 43 twin-engined bombers for the cost of running a battleship. Given the high operational loss rate of carrier aircraft, and the fact that they were probably using stuff like Blenheims, Skuas and Swordfish as comparison, that seems (not surprisingly, given the source) to be very feasible.

In war, each plane lasted about five months, if I recall correctly, on an operational carrier so your annual aircraft replacement cost skyrockets, and the RN would surely have been aware of that, too. So you can't build more carriers unless you change the treaties, the politics, and the budget.
 
??? How do you do that when the treaty restrictions are in force, the RAF gets to tell you that you'll only get a handful of aircraft, and the defence budget is restricted?

The full cost of buying and running a Nelson class was only 80% of buying and running an Illustrious class with 36 aircraft, allowing for each plane to last five years, according to Chatfield's figures in 1938. He allowed 414,000 GBP per year for aircraft replacement. That seems to account for the fact that putting 36 aircraft on a carrier does not mean just paying for 36 planes - it requires reserves, training aircraft, OTU-style aircraft, and the very high general maintenance costs. That means that even in 1938, each year the planes for an Illustrious class cost as much to run as six fleet destroyers did.

Chatfield's figures indicate that you could run 61 naval aircraft for the cost of running a battleship. The RN and RAF agreed at about the same time that you could run just 43 twin-engined bombers for the cost of running a battleship. Given the high operational loss rate of carrier aircraft, and the fact that they were probably using stuff like Blenheims, Skuas and Swordfish as comparison, that seems (not surprisingly, given the source) to be very feasible.

In war, each plane lasted about five months, if I recall correctly, on an operational carrier so your annual aircraft replacement cost skyrockets, and the RN would surely have been aware of that, too. So you can't build more carriers unless you change the treaties, the politics, and the budget.
all the experimental carriers could be replaced at anytime.Eagle would be the prime one to go.Too slow and way too big for the number of aircraft carried with furious being next.Hermes and argus can be replaced by a larger carrier and once the 2nd London naval treaty rolls around there were no tonnage limits(or cost for that matter).Other than shore bombardment the Nelsons only fired their guns once in action so the cost benefit analysis skews to carriers. (even in ww1 the battleships rarely fired their guns in action).There was a loophole in the Washington treaty to build carriers under 10,000 tons.(trade protection carriers.....escort carriers).Basically any way to increase the Nelrods speed will cost more money.
 
I can't work out how your remarks fit the time line. To make NelRod quicker we're looking at a POD in 1922, which is extremely early to essentially make the claim that the entire British Empire can rest safe because carriers could replace battleships.

The only way to know in 1922 that carriers could replace battleships would be to be given 100/100 hindsight by ASBs. In 1922, the world's entire history of flat-top usage seems to have been 143 landings on an experimental ship. That is no basis on which to risk a country's future.

At the time there was no truly operational carrier-borne torpedo bomber; no operational carrier-borne level bomber that could carry a weapon that could sink a battleship; and no operational dive bomber. The only torpedo that can be carried by carrier aircraft is short, light, short-ranged and slow and can't sink a battleship. The only carrier-borne torpedo bombers can't carry both a torpedo and a navigator, so the pilot would have had to fly through the mist and clouds of the Atlantic and North Sea by compass, hoping that the wind at their altitude is still the same as the wind at sea level was when they left the carrier. The RN knew that the aircraft that had been involved in recce (which normally had a specialist navigator) had provided very little accurate information, for good reason - there simply was not the equipment available to navigate properly in the murky conditions they operated in.

Was anyone really going to risk a huge part of the nation's defence on a weapons system that still had huge problems? Even in WW2 not a single battleship was sunk at sea by carrier aircraft until no less than six fast carriers concentrated on Musashi.

It's hard to see what could be gained by getting rid of the early carriers in the time frame we're looking at.

No one was going to replace Argus in 1922 because she was the only carrier the RN had, she'd been converted only four years before and was vital in developing carrier aviation. Why would a carrier fan get rid of the RN's only real flight deck? No one was going to replace Hermes in 1922, because had been launched but not completed, and no one knew at the time that she was too small to be really effective as a fleet carrier. No one was going to replace Eagle in 1922 because she wasn't fully completed, was faster than the battle line of the time, was not known to be too slow, carriers were almost brand new as a concept so no one knew she was too slow, and given her war service she was probably actually good value.

The figures I can find indicate that when you say "basically any way to increase the Nelrods speed will cost more money" than replacing Argus, Hermes, Eagle and Furious, you're well off the mark. Building 1930s carriers to carry the 90+ aircraft the four old carriers would have cost around 7.2 million pounds, or just 350,00 GBP less than the Nelrods cost. That's using the cost of an Ark Royal (3.215 mill, 54 a/c max.) and an Illustrious (4 mill, 36 a/c designed).

In comparison, the major rebuild of the Warspite was 2.4 mill and Renown's major rebuild was 3m at a time when a new battleship would have been around 7 mill. The enormous rebuilds of the old Italian battleships were 300 mill L when a new Littorio was 800 mill L, and it increased their speed from 21.5 knots to 27. So given that the Nelrods did not need the armour upgrades that Warspite and Renown got, and that they could have been given more speed with far less work than the Italian battleships got, it's probably fair to say that the Nelrods could have been speeded up for 2-3 million, which is far less than the 7.2 mill or so of replacing the old carriers.

The fact that the Washington Treaty allowed for unrestricted carriers under 10,000 tons doesn't mean that they were worthwhile. The RN sketched such a design as early as May 1923, but couldn't really make it work; Hermes was of similar size (and had cost about 2.1mill) and was already known to be too small to be successful. A light fleet carrier of the '30s, to take 12-15 aircraft, would have been 2.5 to 3.3 million which was very inefficient compared to an Illustrious or Ark.

The RN wasn't full of idiots; they knew incomparably more about ship design than you or I do. No one in 1922 knows that the Nelsons will only fire their guns once in action at sea (which isn't strictly true, by the way). They did know that it was only the Grand Fleet that had stopped Britain from being cut off from most of the rest of the world. As far as the fact that most battleships in WW1 didn't fire there guns much, well we can say exactly the same thing about the 120 or so aircraft that the Grand Fleet carried every time it went to sea in 1918.

If we apply the approach "we are not going to buy a weapon that was rarely used in action in the last war" then no one would have built hunter-killer submarines after WW1 and WW2, because the specialist hunter-killers and normal subs used in that role in those wars had little success. No one would have built guided missiles after WW2, because the guided missiles used in WW2 were rarely used and had little success. As a general approach, avoiding things because they were rarely used in the last war is, at the least, problematic. And if we apply the approach "we are not going to buy a weapon that was rarely used in action in the last war" then ship-borne aircraft and aircraft carriers would not be built in 1922, but battleships would!
 
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