AHC/WI: Ex-Confederates Deported Emasse

[jmc247]

There are many many mythologies about the Civil War and Reconstruction. I tend to prefer going to the papers at the time to bypass the filter.

The papers at the time tell a story of ‘yanks’ political party being cool on the black franchise until conflict soon after the war arises again with the political party of ‘Johnny Reb’.

The papers at the time believed the black franchise was still viewed as conditional by the dominant political party in Congress as long as they were voting ‘the right way’ and successfully holding down ‘the rebel party’.

Spoiler

 

[Taunay]

There are many many mythologies about the Civil War and Reconstruction. I tend to prefer going to the papers at the time to bypass the filter.

The papers at the time tell a story of ‘yanks’ political party being cool on the black franchise until conflict soon after the war arises again with the political party of ‘Johnny Reb’.

The papers at the time believed the black franchise was still viewed as conditional by the dominant political party in Congress as long as they were voting ‘the right way’ and successfully holding down ‘the rebel party’.

Good point, thanks for this

 

[The Tai-Pan]

There are many many mythologies about the Civil War and Reconstruction. I tend to prefer going to the papers at the time to bypass the filter.

The papers at the time tell a story of ‘yanks’ political party being cool on the black franchise until conflict soon after the war arises again with the political party of ‘Johnny Reb’.

The papers at the time believed the black franchise was still viewed as conditional by the dominant political party in Congress as long as they were voting ‘the right way’ and successfully holding down ‘the rebel party’.

Looking at primary source material is valuable but is hardly 'looking past the filter'. You are just seeing the mythology in the moment.

 

[jmc247]

Looking at primary source material is valuable but is hardly 'looking past the filter'. You are just seeing the mythology in the moment.

Well the mythology at the moment imagined a world of northern and southern politicians both who came off as pompous in the extreme and also shockingly racist by modern ears continuing their conflict in a much less violent way, but viewing the freedmen as potential pawns in that continued struggle.

 

[raharris1973]

Also the Reconstruction Amendments were inevitable. The North would not let the South get off their Rebellion scot-free. If not to spite the South, they would pass them to try to hold Republican power in the South.

But the Republicans could also relax more once they found they could maintain comfortable national majorities with a combination of the north and several newly admitted western states. They could even cheat a little in Oregon to get national majorities, and that was easier than guarding the south (1876).

 

[Taunay]

But the Republicans could also relax more once they found they could maintain comfortable national majorities with a combination of the north and several newly admitted western states. They could even cheat a little in Oregon to get national majorities, and that was easier than guarding the south (1876).

True, I was exaggerating when I said inevitable
But I do believe that, coming from a Civil war, both parties would always focus more on the North-South divide than the West

 

[jmc247]

But the Republicans could also relax more once they found they could maintain comfortable national majorities with a combination of the north and several newly admitted western states. They could even cheat a little in Oregon to get national majorities, and that was easier than guarding the south (1876).

By that point in time you also lost a fair bit of the edge from the war.

For the elites in the first couple years it was ‘amn yanks’ killed my two boys at Vicksburg or on the other end ‘Johnny reb’ killed my son at Manassas.

A decade later they had new sons and talked about how gallantly and/or honorably their past sons fought and died rather then who killed them.

 

[Mikestone8]

Also the Reconstruction Amendments were inevitable.

And their abandonment was even more inevitable when it became clear that they were unnecessary for getting loyal governments in the South. With that out of the way, they just weren't *important* enough to be worth enforcing.

 

[raharris1973]

A cardinal rule of any difficult AHC is to loosen the terms and to allow respondents to play with PoDs quite a bit further back than most would imagine or would initially come to mind, that gives one the "running room" to make things happen according to the preferred outcome.

For example, perhaps if a southern rebellion happens a generation earlier, in the 1830s, based on the tariff issue (or the tariff issue and Indian removal) combined with a non-supportive President who is not popular in the south. The north prevails over the south in this civil war and suppresses secession, but there is a mass exodus of southern rebels to the newly founded Republic of Texas, which has a congenial system of government and culture for them, and the victorious Union administration sentences certain categories of secessionist civil and military leaders (also in this TL called Confederates) who did not flee, to exile.

 

[The Uchronian]

The Wade-Davis Bill could change that. So could the SlaughterHouse Cases. And the immigration restrictions previously mentioned (Although they are after the period). The Fifteenth Amendment was supposed to be more radical. (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/grant-fifteenth/). There's a lot of PODs but let's stick also with the Lodge Bill, which would combat disenfranchisement in the South.
Frankly, it seems like people who are too skeptical of Reconstruction tend to see OTL as the best-case scenario, when it probably is one of the worst.
Also your second paragraph is very implausible. Why would Southerners NOT elect Rebs? And the Black Codes could be combated but I agree that the South would want to implement it because they feared the upsetting of the status quo

In regards to the bold-this is a good point, and even by purely objective standards one cannot help but notice there were a number of things that simply could have gone better with Reconstruction, to various extents, even if you only approach it from the standards of its own day.....and that I have noticed that a number of Reconstruction pessimists either tend have a rather pessimistic outlook in general.....

(And yes, the Black Codes, while they would be very hard to avoid altogether, could have been at least somewhat blunted without too much difficulty)

Also the Reconstruction Amendments were inevitable. The North would not let the South get off their Rebellion scot-free. If not to spite the South, they would pass them to try to hold Republican power in the South.

At the very least, there was no plausible scenario in which it wouldn't have happened by the winter of 1860/61 at the very latest.

Looking at primary source material is valuable but is hardly 'looking past the filter'. You are just seeing the mythology in the moment.

Yeah, that seems about right.

True, I was exaggerating when I said inevitable
But I do believe that, coming from a Civil war, both parties would always focus more on the North-South divide than the West

Yeah, it'd be hard to do that without some really radical PODs: maybe the slavery issue is resolved rather early, and regionalism becomes the big dividing issue in it's own right instead?

 

[Mikestone8]

(And yes, the Black Codes, while they would be very hard to avoid altogether, could have been at least somewhat blunted without too much difficulty)

I don't see why a surviving Lincoln (or an Acting President Foster) couldn't have required the Southern states to include in their Constitutions a provision that all vagrancy or labour laws must be applicable regardless of race, and banning corporal punishment by employers, at least for workers over 21. After all, they mostly complied with other requirements like repudiating the Confederate debt.

Incidentally, could it not be argued that the true beneficiaries of Radical Reconstruction were not so much Freedmen as white Unionists? Iirc a lot of them faced violence in 1865. However Radical Reconstruction gave them an easy way to mend fences with their Secesh neighbours by joining them in opposition to it.

 

[Taunay]

In regards to the bold-this is a good point, and even by purely objective standards one cannot help but notice there were a number of things that simply could have gone better with Reconstruction, to various extents, even if you only approach it from the standards of its own day.....and that I have noticed that a number of Reconstruction pessimists either tend have a rather pessimistic outlook in general.....

(And yes, the Black Codes, while they would be very hard to avoid altogether, could have been at least somewhat blunted without too much difficulty)



At the very least, there was no plausible scenario in which it wouldn't have happened by the winter of 1860/61 at the very latest.



Yeah, that seems about right.



Yeah, it'd be hard to do that without some really radical PODs: maybe the slavery issue is resolved rather early, and regionalism becomes the big dividing issue in it's own right instead?

Agree

I don't see why a surviving Lincoln (or an Acting President Foster) couldn't have required the Southern states to include in their Constitutions a provision that all vagrancy or labour laws must be applicable regardless of race, and banning corporal punishment by employers, at least for workers over 21. After all, they mostly complied with other requirements like repudiating the Confederate debt.

Good point!

 

[BELFAST]

The challenge is to have the Radical Republicans not only come up with the idea to deport (as opposed to other forms of punishment) Ex-Confederate soldiers and collaborators, but have the policy successfully be enacted. Where could they've realistically be sent to, and what sort've effects might this have had on post-War America and the world at large?

Why would the USA want to deport such a large number of people?
I am not sure what purpose it would serve other than crippling the economy of the former CSA states for a generation or 2.
The Union had won by such a wide margin no state has very attempted to leave the union for any reason again.
The USA after the civil war went on to become the dominant military and economic power in the world in the 20th century.
Mass deportation like what you suggest only damages the chances of that happening.

 

[The Lone Ronin]

The biggest problem with this idea is that many Confederates were Americans after all and trying to deport most or all of them to another country would be too costly and massive not to mention creating even more tensions with the South since much of the population were secessionists aside from some Unionist pockets like eastern Tennessee or the German settlements of Texas.

 

[Casting Crown]

The south can always be resettled, there's always Canada that's a cheaper option.

And they just acquired a large territory to settle, well we have some people with experience in farming who like to claim Anglosaxon heritage.

And it seems that you're just right at the end of a few rail lines, we will even build you one going across that territory connecting you to British Columbia for you if we can assist you in settling it with some loyalist.

 

[BELFAST]

The south can always be resettled, there's always Canada that's a cheaper option.

And they just acquired a large territory to settle, well we have some people with experience in farming who like to claim Anglosaxon heritage.

And it seems that you're just right at the end of a few rail lines, we will even build you one going across that territory connecting you to British Columbia for you if we can assist you in settling it with some loyalist.

I assume to land and business would go to the freed slaves or those who had served the union.
There may be a shortage of skilled labour or people with business experience.
Bringing in outsiders if they have business or banking skills could just create a new white business class with all the wealth in the former CSA.

 

[Casting Crown]

I assume to land and business would go to the freed slaves or those who had served the union.
There may be a shortage of skilled labour or people with business experience.
Bringing in outsiders if they have business or banking skills could just create a new white business class with all the wealth in the former CSA.

Oddly enough it's your screen name that holds a clue a good many Irish did actually settle in the south after the civil war, but they assimilated and forgot who they were.

Likewise you get the descendants of carpetbaggers whos ancestors fought for the union now proudly waving American flags.

 

[BELFAST]

Oddly enough it's your screen name that holds a clue a good many Irish did actually settle in the south after the civil war, but they assimilated and forgot who they were.

The only family connections I have in the former CSA states were on my mother's side( scots-ulster) and they were in the Carolinas.
My father's side of the family was in Pennsylvania, Detroit and Rhode island.
The big port of entry in the south for the Irish was Savannah Georgia.

Likewise you get the descendants of carpetbaggers whos ancestors fought for the union now proudly waving American flags.

Carpenter bagger will be mostly white, so with the running the businesses you get a new white elite.

 

[Casting Crown]

The only family connections I have in the former CSA states were on my mother's side( scots-ulster) and they were in the Carolinas.
My father's side of the family was in Pennsylvania, Detroit and Rhode island.
The big port of entry in the south for the Irish was Savannah Georgia.

Carpenter bagger will be mostly white, so with the running the businesses you get a new white elite.

Not you directly just
a connection to Ireland something I thought about.

But you I assume must not be in Ireland then.

 

[BELFAST]

Not you directly just
a connection to Ireland something I thought about.

But you I assume must not be in Ireland then.

I live in Ireland in county Limerick but lived in the city of Beflast in the 1990s.