What if at some point, England gets a government with a structure that is quite similar to the Japanese Shogunate, where the monarch is powerless and the military is the one calling the shots, but still pay respects to the former?
What if at some point, England gets a government with a structure that is quite similar to the Japanese Shogunate, where the monarch is powerless and the military is the one calling the shots, but still pay respects to the former?
What if at some point, England gets a government with a structure that is quite similar to the Japanese Shogunate, where the monarch is powerless and the military is the one calling the shots, but still pay respects to the former?
What if at some point, England gets a government with a structure that is quite similar to the Japanese Shogunate, where the monarch is powerless and the military is the one calling the shots, but still pay respects to the former?
Without the Normans bringing over the continental ideas of nobility, would it be possible for the Witan to independently develop into a system of parallel nobility that lays the groundwork for Shogunate rule? In Japan you had the samurai separated from the court nobility. While in Russia, another region that developed independently from continental Europe feudal traditions, you had the division between boyar landed nobility and dvoryanin and druzhinik (originally) unlanded nobility by service.The issue here is that whilst Japan had the near (or outright) religious position in the Emperor, England had no such thing.
In fact, we legitimized our kings with the Witan, or elected-body-inserted-here almost every time, since the Saxons imported the concept from Germania. So perhaps this can be used in a different way.
Note : The term Witan is largely anacronistic, ala Byzantines - it is essentially an assembly, but I like the word dammit so I'm using it.
Now, what could be interesting, is if you go back to the Heptarchy period, to look at a Bretwalda, essentially an overlord - and as such not a huge leap from the Shogunate.
Say we have a grand witan at some point, perhaps in response to the Viking invasions, with all the lords of Britannia (or a significant number) are gathered to elect a single leader, a War-Lord that all obey in military matters, who helps collectively defeat the viking invaders. This leads to coastal forts, with ships, initially funded and manned by those whose land it was on, but later to be simply funded by a communal budget, but manned and led by the Bretwalda.
I can imagine that as part of this (for fear of their total dominance) the Witan makes a somewhat minor ruler the "King", backed by the church. Rather than directly send money to the Bretwalda, money goes to the King, who under exceptional circumstances would withhold the money, and because of the churches backing, and their oaths of loyalty to "Defend the King" the Bretwalda wouldn't have an easy time forcing his hand, at first. I imagine an oath somewhat like this
"I, Lord of the [Mercians], do swear to serve the Kings Peace, Defend him from his enemies, and then to serve his Bretwalda in the defense of [Albion] and her dominions".
Replace [Mercians] with the appropriate people, and [Albion] with the name of the collective realms. Personally, I like Albion as an alternative to Britannia.
Eventually this leads to a situation where the elected Bretwalda is backed by the Witan, the hereditary title of King is backed purely by the church, and reliant on the Bretwalda for protection.
Sure this might get a bit interesting when the concept of Divine Right comes along, but until then, you have something that loosely resembles the Shogunate. If you can make this somehow expand to the length of Britain, and Ireland (justified by security, an end to piracy, and the ultimate authority of the One True King of Britannia and Hibernia) then you have the interesting situation where Saxons, Gaels, Picts, Scots, and Irish elect a single Bretwalda, and all serve a single King.
+1 Vote for Bretwalda Northumbria
(Personally, I've always liked the idea of a Britain that fought back against the Vikings on the sea, taking the Danish longship, creating their own, and counter-pillaging the Vikings - and establishing their own forts across the North Sea to patrol Scandinavia, or exact tribute from Vikings that were allowed to raid say, Francia, Germania, or anywhere-but-my-home-thanks - doing this would make the institute of Bretwalda even more important)
Now, this isn't uniquely something that could happen after the Saxons come - it could be an unusual assembly of all the landholders of Britannia, Roman, Briton, Cumbrian, (even Saxon) when the Roman Empire leaves - in which case you could have the Consul that defends the realm, and the Dux Britannia, who is the rightful ruler. Less likely to have the dynamic you desire IMO, because it takes military duties from the Dux, rather than creating a whole new series of institutions, but you get the idea.
Without the Normans bringing over the continental ideas of nobility, would it be possible for the Witan to independently develop into a system of parallel nobility that lays the groundwork for Shogunate rule? In Japan you had the samurai separated from the court nobility. While in Russia, another region that developed independently from continental Europe feudal traditions, you had the division between boyar landed nobility and dvoryanin and druzhinik (originally) unlanded nobility by service.
You would need a provincial system of some form in England, or at least something that allows regional figures to have extensive control over the areas they govern.
If you get a shogun that far back, how long can it be before one of them does a Pipen the Short?Well, the Witan was already made up from thegns and eorldermen - both not terribly distant from nobles. In fact, eorldermen were often "sub-kings" or kings who ruled on the behalf of the king who had defeated them. (Known to those in the feudal system as vassals), although typically they used the Kings authority rather than their own, formally.
With a weaker king, and a Bretwalda, I don't see why the concept couldn't emerge locally. Plus, with further trade with Francia, I'm sure the idea could be brought across, and taken advantage of by a cunning noble, or powerful Bretwalda who thinks he can use it to his benefit. I'm not sure you'll have a perfect mimicry, but you'll have the class of noble that rules the countryside, and would become Bretwalda, and the class of noble that lives in the Royal Court, made up of the lesser eorldermen, or dispossessed nobility.
If you get a shogun that far back, how long can it be before one of them does a Pipen the Short?
The issue here is that whilst Japan had the near (or outright) religious position in the Emperor, England had no such thing.
What about the Divine Right of Kings?
If you get a shogun that far back, how long can it be before one of them does a Pipen the Short?
With the precedence of the Karlings' usurpation of the throne from the Merovingians,will that even be an option?Probably a couple of generations.
Is it possible to keep the Karlings as kings while the Capets rule as permanent regents?