AHC/WI: Earlier Fighter Escorts

There are a few early war candidates that could do a partial job, as @Zheng He said the P40 had pretty long legs, as did the Brewster Buffalo and the Westland Whirlwind, however all had issues with altitude performance and the Buffalo was as slow as shit. That said they could likely escort bombers almost to the Rhur.

Another, perhaps controversial, candidate is the Spitfire! The Mk VII and particularly the Mk VIII variant got the shitty end of the stick compared to the Mk IX in production terms. The Mk VIII had 122 gal of fuel compared to 85 gal of the Mk V derived Mk XI and fitted with a 90 gal drop tank or a variety of slipper tanks had over 1100 mile range, or a tactical radius of almost 400 miles.

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Edit; I found this on another forum:the Whirlwind flew escort missions as far as Antwerp, anti ship dive bombing raids with 2 x 500 pounders as far as Cherbourg and Rhubarb missions with 2 x 250 pound bombs as far as the northern outskirts of Paris.

The last mission of 137 sqn on 21st June 43 was a Rhubarb to an aerodrome at Poix Du Nord.

Don't forget the might Fairey Fulmar. Okay, not exactly a high performer but it had the range to get there. Again, stop gap...
 
So I guess we all agree that the P-51 Mustang in some form needs to be deployed in 1943.
The USAAF can deploy Mustang squadrons with VIII Fighter Command instead of sending the P-38s as OTL. This means more P-38s for the Med.
while the Eighth Air Force is still the main effort, you still can’t forget about the other air front with the Fifteenth and Twelfth Air Forces in Italy. I am thinking equip the Fifteenth with improved P-38s during the winter of 1943 while airfields are being constructed in Foggia.
 
You would need something major to convince the USAAF to adopt a Naval aircraft for use in the ETO.

Not necessarily, granted they weren't used in the ETO but he USAAF took delivery of almost 1000 A-24 Banshees, better known as the SBD Dauntless. Granted they were mostly used in second line areas because they discovered the same thing everyone else who used dive bombers did - in non-permissive environments, they took heavy losses.

However, the reason the USAAF became interested in the Banshee/Dauntless was because of the Stuka's success early in the war. Have somebody enjoy some success with a long range escort fighter of any sort early in the war (maybe even a few relatively successful Bf-110 escort missions or something) and maybe they decide they have to grab what is available and with the Corsair having problems with carrier operations, the USAAF joins the Marines and happily takes some off of the Navy's hands.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
So I guess we all agree that the P-51 Mustang in some form needs to be deployed in 1943.

Not exactly. The P-51B, available with the two stage supercharger and with an earlier introduction, would be the best choice.

Similarly, a P-38 without the early crash and a faster development, would also have worked in this time frame. I have always wondered why it took so long to add additional internal fuel tanks to the P-47, a third candidate. The Corsair requires the AAC to realize the Navy has a good idea, a fourth candidate.

All of these require changes in OTL. The Mustang arrived in useful numbers and adequate development first.
 
Not exactly. The P-51B, available with the two stage supercharger and with an earlier introduction, would be the best choice.

The OTL Merlin Mustang was a damn fine A/C indeeed. This is what people in the UK made in 1942:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Mustang_Mk.X
Speed went from 422 kmh to 435 as the A/C were tweaked and ever better engines were used. Install the drop tank facility, convert the lot into the Mk.Xs and go kill Luftwaffe in Spring of 1943.

Similarly, a P-38 without the early crash and a faster development, would also have worked in this time frame. I have always wondered why it took so long to add additional internal fuel tanks to the P-47, a third candidate. The Corsair requires the AAC to realize the Navy has a good idea, a fourth candidate.

All of these require changes in OTL. The Mustang arrived in useful numbers and adequate development first.

Agreed.
 
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All this talk about earlier Mustang, while 100% correct and totally feasible in the right conditions, is why WW2 after early 1942 is now so uninteresting to me.

The answer to every question is:
  1. Invent the most totally bitching weapon that is totally feasible.
  2. Build it in massive numbers.
  3. Overwhelm the enemy and win.
Apart from the fact that WW2 toys are so cool that scenario is completely deterministic, and therefore uninteresting to me.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
This issue is not that predetermined. A change or three to several planes could have the Mustang relegated to photo-recon, ground attack or secondary theaters. We could complaining about the ubiquitous Jug, Lightning or Corsair. Heck, sending the Lightning I to the Brits with turbos and handed engines in March 1942 or simply not crashing the prototype in a PR stunt, would advanced the P-38 by six months to a year.
 
This issue is not that predetermined. A change or three to several planes could have the Mustang relegated to photo-recon, ground attack or secondary theaters. We could complaining about the ubiquitous Jug, Lightning or Corsair. Heck, sending the Lightning I to the Brits with turbos and handed engines in March 1942 or simply not crashing the prototype in a PR stunt, would advanced the P-38 by six months to a year.

The pre-determinism doesn't come from the Mustang, but because without it there is the Jug, Corsair and P38 waiting to do much of the Mustang's job if the Mustang fails.
 
The pre-determinism doesn't come from the Mustang, but because without it there is the Jug, Corsair and P38 waiting to do much of the Mustang's job if the Mustang fails.

Except look at what the Jug actually did do OTL. As one professor of mine from graduate school liked to say, "The Jug won Big Week." The vast majority of USAAF escort fighters during Big Week were P-47s with about an equal number of P-38s and P-51s participating.
 
I am going to say that the USAAF and RAF would throw pretty much every aircraft mentioned on this thread at the Germans on escort missions.
The RAF could kick things off in 1942 by building a long range Spitfire and using that for initial escort missions.
When the Americans arrive in Britain during Operation Bolero they bring the P-38 Lightning with them or as Swamp Tiger mentioned lend-lease the P-38. The P-38 is an upgrade from the Whirlwind for the RAF.
If Hap Arnold is really serious about getting a long range escort into the war ASAP then he could grab the Corsair from the Navy. The Corsair makes it’s combat debut in 1943 in both the Pacific and over Europe. You could just have one fighter group. You don’t need a whole fighter wing. You could even have the FAA Corsairs drafted into flying escort missions.
Republic could start work on extending the range of the Thunderbolts. The P-47s could end up in the Med while the Lightnings stay in England.
Hawker could step up as well and produce long range Typhoons and Tempests to reinforce the Spitfires and replace American built fighters.
The point I am trying to make is that we have been trying to bring in the definitive fighter in 1943. Riain and Zheng He are both right. The Thunderbolt and Lightning could and did the job of the Mustang in the ETO. Without a doubt the F4-U could have held it’s own against the Luftwaffe.
So realistically all of the fighters might be seeing combat in 1943 over Germany including P-51s. By 1944 I could see all frontline American and British fighters flying to Berlin and back with no problem.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
An earlier introduction of long-range fighters will save hundreds of aircrew lives by January 1944. You will see countermeasures by the Germans, an earlier push to get a high altitude FW 190, improved Bf 109's, unless something changes, a real mess at Messerschmidt related to twin engine fighters. Jets and rocket aircraft will get more funding. You may see a reduction in some of the WonderWaffe in order to concentrate on air defense. Hurried introduction of some aircraft may backfire, others may find success.

Either way, more resources spent on the Western air war.
 
I'm seeing a lot of people answering the AHC part but not many answering the WI.

....what impact would it have on the war?

As @SwampTiger says it will save hundreds of aircrew lives by Jan 44. Beyond that, if it was pursued by the British, using some of the aircraft suggested and perhaps in particular a MkII version of the Whirlwind, it could have changed the course of the bombing campaign. The British could have devoted increasing resources to escorted daylight bombing from 1941, far more accurate and effective than the night bombing which was horrendously ineffective and thus an incredible waste of scarce resources. Britain might have been able to do 'round the clock' bombing in the early years, with escorted daylight raids followed up by night raids without escort.
 
If the CBO did nothing else, it broke the back of the Luftwaffe's fighter force. As the bombing intensified and fighter escorts became more common, more and more of the Luftwaffe's priority became air defense and German fighter pilots were drawn into the sky where they were shot down and the cycle just repeated itself. Heck I had a professor whose brother-in-law fought for De Gaulle in the desert and and in Europe and he claimed that he never saw another German airplane after El Alamein and that was in the fall of 1942. Granted there were a variety of factors at work but a significant part of that was the increasing pressure of Allied bombing drew German fighters away from other missions.

If the Allies get long range escorts (of any sort) in significant numbers earlier, this just starts the cycle of destruction of the Luftwaffe earlier (along with saving several thousand Allied bomber crews). What effect this has on the war as a whole I don't know, the bomber offensive is one of those subjects that provokes violent disagreements. I am of the opinion that while costly, the bomber offensive was a legitimate and substantial form of second front activity by the British and the Americans and if you can get long range fighter escorts over Germany earlier, that makes it a more substantial form of second front activity. Fewer German fighters are available on other fronts, more German resources get pulled into air defense, Allied operations on all other fronts become more effective, and the war probably ends some number of months sooner. How many, I have no idea.
 
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