AHC/WI: Different division of Charles V's inheritance. All Imperial territories go to the Emperor.

[DarkKayder]

After spending his whole reing struggling to control his enormous empire, Charles V decided to split his inheritance between his son and his brother, leaving the Spanish Crown(s) with the lions share of both his German (or rather dutch) and Italian lands. This would go on to cause a lot of trouble for Phillip's decendants, who would spend ridiculous ammounts of money and manpower figthing wars from which they gained nothing but unnecessary enemies and a temporal preservation of the status quo. Taking this into account, it has always seemed to me that it would had been much better for both realms if Charles V had divided his inheritance in a geographically sound way by letting the Imperial Habsburgs get all of the territories within the Imperial border; that is, all of the Burgundian inheritance plus Milan.

Your challenge, should you choce to accept it, is to do exactly that: With a POD after Charles V's ascendance to both thrones, get the Habsburg inheritance be divided as shown in the map above. You don't need to keep the same people from OTL as the heirs, just make it happen.

Additionally, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how this would affect both Spain and the HRE.

 

[Benevolence]

This has been floated before, I think one of the best OTL ideas put forward on the forum in the past was to give Burgundy & Milan as dowry to his daughter Maria who would later marry Ferdinand I's son Maximilian II. The problem with Milan is that Philipp II had already been installed as it's Duke prior to Charles V's abdication. Loss of the Imperial crown, milan & the Netherlands is probably a bit much for him to bare and will cause a lot of bad blood.

(I suggest Burgundian inheritance to Maria & Maximilian, let Philipp & Spain keep the Italian holdings)

 

[DarkKayder]

This has been floated before, I think one of the best OTL ideas put forward on the forum in the past was to give Burgundy & Milan as dowry to his daughter Maria who would later marry Ferdinand I's son Maximilian II. The problem with Milan is that Philipp II had already been installed as it's Duke prior to Charles V's abdication. Loss of the Imperial crown, milan & the Netherlands is probably a bit much for him to bare and will cause a lot of bad blood.

(I suggest Burgundian inheritance to Maria & Maximilian, let Philipp & Spain keep the Italian holdings)

But the Spanish never showed much interest in Milan by itself IOTL. It was a vital part of the so-called "Spanish road", whose only purpose was to transport troops and stuffs to and from the Netherlands, which wont be happening here, so I have doubts that the Spanish would care too much about not having Milan (specially in a Spain that is increasingly dominated by Castille rather than Aragon). Without that purpose it would'nt do much other than creating conflict with France.
I'm also aware of the fact that Phillip II had been made Duke, which is why I specified that it's not a necessity to have Phillip as heir. Maybe he can be killed off, or maybe Charles can die before apointing him as Duke.

 

[JonasResende]

Just create the Spanish Road as a kingdom (Milan-Burgundy-Eagle's tailfeathers) for Max II to get when he marries Maria. And Karl V had no issue signing away his son's patrimony OTL, just look at the marriage schemes he offered François Ier: Maria to Charles, duc d'Angoulême with Burgundy as her dowry or Anna of Austria to the same Charles with Milan as her dowry. Seems that the intention was to dower Maria with Burgundy (whole or piecdmeal).

As to Milan, might be easier if everyone kicks up enough fuss about Karl appointing underage Felipe as duke, and he appoints his brother-in-law Luiz, duque de Beja instead. By the time Beja dies it'd be easier to say to Felipe "you're already king of Naples and England, so let's give Max II/Ferdinand II a bone, hmm?"

 

[DarkKayder]

Just create the Spanish Road as a kingdom (Milan-Burgundy-Eagle's tailfeathers) for Max II to get when he marries Maria. And Karl V had no issue signing away his son's patrimony OTL, just look at the marriage schemes he offered François Ier: Maria to Charles, duc d'Angoulême with Burgundy as her dowry or Anna of Austria to the same Charles with Milan as her dowry. Seems that the intention was to dower Maria with Burgundy (whole or piecdmeal).

As to Milan, might be easier if everyone kicks up enough fuss about Karl appointing underage Felipe as duke, and he appoints his brother-in-law Luiz, duque de Beja instead. By the time Beja dies it'd be easier to say to Felipe "you're already king of Naples and England, so let's give Max II/Ferdinand II a bone, hmm?"

Indeed, I really don't think a Netherlands-less Felipe would had cared for Milan one way or another. It was a pretty rich piece of land, but the Spanish never really took interest on taking advantage of that, and just let the cities decay while leeching it without any long-term plans for it.

 

[DarkKayder]

Bump

 

[Tocomocho]

Charles divided the empire because he wanted his firstborn to inherit his father's homeland, Burgundy. However, the electors preferred Ferdinand to Philip as emperor because Ferdinand was already king of Hungary and Bohemia and viceroy of Austria.

 

[DarkKayder]

Personally, I think that no matter how rich the Netherlands where, there is no way they were worth the trouble for the spanish, the logistical nuances involved in sending and suplying an army there where horrendous, and brought Spain into conflict with other states, not to mention that they lacked any sort of strategic advantage for further expantion or power projection. On the Imperial side, it just seems much easier for them to control, administer and defend those lands than to the spanish, not to mention that they were in a much better position (both legally and politically) to actually do something about the Dutch grievances and demands for freedom of religion. This division would also be much better for Milan due to it's proximity to the Austrian core lands. I would expect Imperial rule to be not much dissimilar to that in their German lands, as opposed to the neglectful and sometime straight-up predatory one of the distant spanish. With time, it might even become part of the Austrian core. There is also the fact that a stronger Habsburg Monarchy in the HRE would have a more powerful powerbase to deal with the Reformation. If the Wars of Religion happen similarly to OTL, I think the result might be significantly more favourable to the Emperor. Finnaly, there is the issue of new potential for conflict due to Imperial control of these areas. Venice in particular would probably be a target for Imperial agression and expantionism ITTL due to their control of a good chunk of Italian lands that used to belong to Milan or to Ecclesiastical vassals of the Emperor.

 

[Benevolence]

Personally, I think that no matter how rich the Netherlands where, there is no way they were worth the trouble for the spanish, the logistical nuances involved in sending and suplying an army there where horrendous, and brought Spain into conflict with other states, not to mention that they lacked any sort of strategic advantage for further expantion or power projection. On the Imperial side, it just seems much easier for them to control, administer and defend those lands than to the spanish, not to mention that they were in a much better position (both legally and politically) to actually do something about the Dutch grievances and demands for freedom of religion. This division would also be much better for Milan due to it's proximity to the Austrian core lands. I would expect Imperial rule to be not much dissimilar to that in their German lands, as opposed to the neglectful and sometime straight-up predatory one of the distant spanish. With time, it might even become part of the Austrian core. There is also the fact that a stronger Habsburg Monarchy in the HRE would have a more powerful powerbase to deal with the Reformation.

Problem is it required foresight that Charles lacked at the time. If say for some reason Felipe was appointed governor in the Nederlands and had shown his inflexible tendencies then it may have changed Charles mind.
As far as Charles knew at the time, despite distractions in Germany. He was for the most part able to contain France. Spain never went bankrupt as it did until 1557, a year after Charles had abdicated from his throne in Spain. As far as he was aware Spain (Castille) could manage it with the wealth from the colonies.
I think another thing was Charles's prestige for his son. I mean sure he's giving it to his daughter but if he had the opportunity to hold it for his son, he would and he did exactly that.

 

[CH33K1 N4ND0Z]

Another thing is, this would likely butterfly the Spanish Armada, since it was, in addition to English Protestantism, also triggered by England's interference in the Netherlands and by Anglo-Dutch privateering, but since Spain now doesn't own the Netherlands there isn't nearly as much of a need to send ships up there, thus less privateering and stuff.

 

[Neptune]

Loss of the Imperial crown, milan & the Netherlands is probably a bit much for him to bare and will cause a lot of bad blood.

Philip II IIRC didn't care much for the Imperial Crown, and didn't understand the Netherlands in the first place- the interests of the traders and the crown were too divergent. He saw himself as a Spaniard first and foremost.

 

[Janprimus]

Indeed, I really don't think a Netherlands-less Felipe would had cared for Milan one way or another. It was a pretty rich piece of land, but the Spanish never really took interest on taking advantage of that, and just let the cities decay while leeching it without any long-term plans for it.

I tend to disagree, that Filips II would not have cared, that a part of his inherintance and birthright was given away. Since , let's forget Spain and Austria, it would affect his own House (dynasty). That's also how Charles V eventually came to his OTL division, upon inheritance he evnetually had to agree to give Ferdinand the Austrian Hereditary Lands, after a dispute. When he was thinking about his testament, he felt that his nephew, the heir of Ferdinand, Maximilian II had Protestant sympathies, so he sat out to maximize the share of his own truly Catholic son and thus his House and not the House of Ferdinand.
Dynastically it also makes sense from a Habsburg perspective, giving 'Burgundy' & Milan to the Austrian branch would mean, they would feel most of potential French aggression and at the time Spain was in a stronger position, so leaving the Italian front to the Spanish branch might be a good idea.

Philip II was much more Spanish than Charles V, though in upbringing so was Ferdinand I of Austria, though I suspect that a Philip II, who would only had inherited the Burgundian Netherlands would have made a much better effort to understand those lands. IOTL he basically was there to please his father, but couldn't wait for the first great excuse to leave again.

That being said, it does not mean Philip II, would not have desired the dignity of Holy Roman Emperor. What mattered was the fact that the German High Nobility and High Clergy did not want another de facto absentee monarch (Charles V needed to be at so many places, that he never stayed anywhere long enough), so Philip would not have stood a chance at that election anyway.

 

[Lampiao]

Dynastically it also makes sense from a Habsburg perspective, given 'Burgundy' & Milan to the Austrian branch would mean, they would feel most of potential French aggression and at the time Spain was in a stronger position, so leaving the Italian front to the Spanish branch might be a good idea.

This. IMHO the Castillians already started overstretching their influence when they inherited Aragonese vocation to interfere in Italy and in the Mediterranean, the Netherlands only made things unsustainable for Spain as a country. That being said, I tend to believe that OTL division of Charles' empire was the best one in a dynastic point of view.

 

[Janprimus]

This. IMHO the Castillians already started overstretching their influence when they inherited Aragonese vocation to interfere in Italy and in the Mediterranean, the Netherlands only made things unsustainable for Spain as a country. That being said, I tend to believe that OTL division of Charles' empire was the best one in a dynastic point of view.

I can see the Austrian branch, through Mary the wife of Maximilian II getting the Burgundian Lands. However in that case Philip II would want to keep Milan for dynastic reasons, though the Austrian branch would not have objected receiving it. Milan would fit in the Spanish presence in the Italian peninsula and technically the Spanish Habsburgs would keep a stake in the Empire. Also Charles V could see Milan as a compensation for losing the Burgundian Lands for Philip II. I do not see Charles V giving much more away TBH.

 

[DarkKayder]

I can see the Austrian branch, through Mary the wife of Maximilian II getting the Burgundian Lands. However in that case Philip II would want to keep Milan for dynastic reasons, though the Austrian branch would not have objected receiving it. Milan would fit in the Spanish presence in the Italian peninsula and technically the Spanish Habsburgs would keep a stake in the Empire. Also Charles V could see Milan as a compensation for losing the Burgundian Lands for Philip II. I do not see Charles V giving much more away TBH.

The thing is, by this point, Italy was only nominally part of the HRE. As long as the Spanish held Naples, they will be more than interested in keeping the French out. Them holding Milan does nothing to get them to care about the rest of the empire: If the French invade Franche Comte, would they go to war just because they hold a territory across the alps? Clearly no. If the Empire holds Milan, on the other hand, they would definitely be invested in defending Italy along with the Spanish whereas they wouldn't had been otherwise. In short, the Spanish with Milan would not defend the Empire from the French, while the Empire with Milan would defend the Spanish Italian possessions by defending the alpine crossings. I do agree with you in that Charles wouldn't give the Imperial branch anything else if they got the Burgundian Lands. Of everything that has been proposed until now, I think that the one by @JonasResende about getting Luiz of Beja as Duke and having him die heirless after Felipe's coronation is the most plausible.

Another interesting possibility would be if after giving Milan to the Spanish branch, the French had invaded and occupied it again, maybe going for Naples once more. After attempting and failing to kick the French out, and encountering significant logistical difficulties (maybe even more so if the Pope prefers the French in North Italy as long as the Spanish hold the South), they ask their cousins to intervene. Enjoying a much better logistical situation, (and maybe with help from other local players, like Venice) the Austrians manage to give them the boot and occupy it. Wanting something for their trouble, they demand some compensation (ransom) to hand it back. Distressed by the emperor's initial disinterest in impeding a French invasion of Italy, as well as by the realization of their inability to transport and supply an army quickly enough to prevent an alpine crossing, the Spanish let the HRE keep it... maybe in exchange for money or the establishment of a formal anti-French alliance. What do you all think?

 

[Janprimus]

The thing is, by this point, Italy was only nominally part of the HRE. As long as the Spanish held Naples, they will be more than interested in keeping the French out. Them holding Milan does nothing to get them to care about the rest of the empire: If the French invade Franche Comte, would they go to war just because they hold a territory across the alps? Clearly no. If the Empire holds Milan, on the other hand, they would definitely be invested in defending Italy along with the Spanish whereas they wouldn't had been otherwise. In short, the Spanish with Milan would not defend the Empire from the French, while the Empire with Milan would defend the Spanish Italian possessions by defending the alpine crossings. I do agree with you in that Charles wouldn't give the Imperial branch anything else if they got the Burgundian Lands. Of everything that has been proposed until now, I think that the one by @JonasResende about getting Luiz of Beja as Duke and having him die heirless after Felipe's coronation is the most plausible.
(...)

You conveniently forget that the Spanish branch is the stronger and richer branch, if the Austrian branch gets the Burgundian Inheritance, the Austrian branch would be in a much better situation. Regardless Austria-Burgundy who would possibly still be the one playing second fiddle. Giving the Austrian branch 'Burgundy' and Milan would mean they would face most of the potential French expansionism.
Also it is not the Spanish, it's the Habsburg king of the Spanish Kingdoms (the Crowns of Castille and Aragon), who will decide. Also however formally Milan is an Imperial duchy, so for Charles V, if he accepts 'Burgundy' passes to the Austrian Cousins, he'd be adamant his branch keeps their stake with Milan.

As for Luiz of Beja, I can see him as a governor to represent Charles V, but not nothing more. Milan was far too important strategically for the house of Habsburg (also Valois-Orleans-Angouleme), Ferdinand of Austria was really pissed, when Charles V invested his son Philip II, who was his nephew.

 

[calvin1417]

You conveniently forget that the Spanish branch is the stronger and richer branch, if the Austrian branch gets the Burgundian Inheritance, the Austrian branch would be in a much better situation. Regardless Austria-Burgundy who would possibly still be the one playing second fiddle. Giving the Austrian branch 'Burgundy' and Milan would mean they would face most of the potential French expansionism.
Also it is not the Spanish, it's the Habsburg king of the Spanish Kingdoms (the Crowns of Castille and Aragon), who will decide. Also however formally Milan is an Imperial duchy, so for Charles V, if he accepts 'Burgundy' passes to the Austrian Cousins, he'd be adamant his branch keeps their stake with Milan.

As for Luiz of Beja, I can see him as a governor to represent Charles V, but not nothing more. Milan was far too important strategically for the house of Habsburg (also Valois-Orleans-Angouleme), Ferdinand of Austria was really pissed, when Charles V invested his son Philip II, who was his nephew.

Wait how was Milan important to Philip ii other then as a road to the Netherlands?

 

[Benevolence]

Could we also be forgetting about Milan's wealth? It was mentioned earlier. An advantage of keeping Milan would be an alternate source of income for the Spanish Monarch & Army to reduce the debt burden on Castille & the colonies, not sure how much Aragon, Naples, Sicily and Spanish Navarra contributed but from my understanding an undue burden was placed on Castille. Sans Nederlands & no Dutch revolt might make for a more financial safe situation.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

I think it was mooted at one point giving Philip the tital of imperial vicar in Italy. He and the dynasty in general if he is better off if he gets Milan and that title, basically control of Italy, but the other lands within the Empire including the Burgundian inheritance go the the empire.

 

[calvin1417]

Could we also be forgetting about Milan's wealth? It was mentioned earlier. An advantage of keeping Milan would be an alternate source of income for the Spanish Monarch & Army to reduce the debt burden on Castille & the colonies, not sure how much Aragon, Naples, Sicily and Spanish Navarra contributed but from my understanding an undue burden was placed on Castille. Sans Nederlands & no Dutch revolt might make for a more financial safe situation.

Wasn't most of Philips war debt Netherlands related? And he doesn't need Milan with no Netherlands

I think it was mooted at one point giving Philip the tital of imperial vicar in Italy. He and the dynasty in general if he is better off if he gets Milan and that title, basically control of Italy, but the other lands within the Empire including the Burgundian inheritance go the the empire.

what does Milan benefit Spain without the Netherlands?