AHC / WI : Crusader Orders of the Holy Land

The challenge (and what if) is that instead of the Crusades working as per OTL, the Papacy responds to the requests of Alexios with a much more orchestrated strategy. Any petitioner could join one of the new Holy Orders (and any ruler who sponsored them would be given some sort of reward) and partake in the Crusades. Each of these Orders would have the permission of the Pope and the Emperor to govern the territories as vassals. (Of who could be up for debate)

Would these orders be more co-operative with the Byzantine Empire?
Would they be more loyal to the Papacy?

I imagine a few myself (if we stick with the Middle Eastern Targets)

1) Co-operative with the Empire, subservient to the Emperor in Secular concerns, but the Pope in Rome in Spiritual - Catholic Holy Order Middle East :eek:
2) Co-operative but loyal in all means to the Papacy. Papacy unintentionally has created an Empire in the East.
3) Un-cooperative - more dangerous in the Empire, and builds aforementioned Empire.

What do people think? Could it happen? What would very large Catholic orders look like? How big a series of Holy Orders like this could the Christian World start up?
 
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Well, the orders don't really kick off until the 1st already was called...the KH may or may not have unofficially been around, but weren't authorized, and the KT don't happen for over a decade. The thing, too, is that Urban had no idea what he was unleashing...and a lot of it went wrong. People would march east a few days and sack some other German village, thinking that must be what was meant by the east, etc. So, unless you're talking later Crusades...at which point they're not really responding to Alexios...there wouldn't be any orders to organize, and no one would be aware of the scale of what was coming, so they wouldn't even know how to begin. Organization that did develop was mostly the Italians mercantilising the process, and then later the orders.
 
Well, the orders don't really kick off until the 1st already was called...the KH may or may not have unofficially been around, but weren't authorized, and the KT don't happen for over a decade. The thing, too, is that Urban had no idea what he was unleashing...and a lot of it went wrong. People would march east a few days and sack some other German village, thinking that must be what was meant by the east, etc. So, unless you're talking later Crusades...at which point they're not really responding to Alexios...there wouldn't be any orders to organize, and no one would be aware of the scale of what was coming, so they wouldn't even know how to begin. Organization that did develop was mostly the Italians mercantilising the process, and then later the orders.

Hmm, but what if it was more directly organised that way by Urban? This is a change in mentality, but directly organising "Holy Armies", that would later be the Orders isn't impossible, in fact it would probably be the major characteristic and PoD for this timeline. It could even begin as mercenary captains hired to organise these sacred armies of the Pope.

So definitely divergent from OTL from the beginning. Urban responding to the letter not with a simple call to assist the ERE, but instead the construction of a Holy Army. Very different from OTL to start this.
 
It could even begin as mercenary captains hired to organise these sacred armies of the Pope.

Mercenary captains isn't a good idea for holy orders of any sort. As trainers, yes, but not as leaders/organizers of the armies. Otherwise the orders quickly become mercenary armies for hire, albeit with a fancy name.
 
Mercenary captains isn't a good idea for holy orders of any sort. As trainers, yes, but not as leaders/organizers of the armies. Otherwise the orders quickly become mercenary armies for hire, albeit with a fancy name.

To be fair, that is more what I intended. Consultants, not part of the organisation (especially not the higher echelons).

What is the Pope giving the Kings and Nobles in order to "lease" their vassals in this way?

Well, the peasantry isn't that easy to control, after all the pilgrimages of the 1st Crusade were able to move through without their legal overlords being able to really stop them without forming an army.

Plus, if joining the order means you can't inherit familial titles, that will remove many actual vassals from the recruits - not peasants mind you, but bastard sons that fathers want to get rid of could be given a sword, a shield, and told to sign up with the Orders.

If we're looking at carrot and stick for this anyway - the carrot could be titles such as "The Pious", or recognition by the Pope. (Perhaps recognising claims over less pious rivals). The stick? Preventing the Orders forming could be portrayed as a sin against God - and as such, worth of excommunication. After all, you'd refuse to provide Charity to the Church in defense of all Christendom. Very sinful indeed!

Biggest problem is the East-West Schism.

I think that may come more into play after the invasion, as the E-W Schism is transformed by the West holding... well, most of the Eastern Patriarchs. Admittedly this didn't turn the Empire Catholic IOTL, but a more robust Levant could see the Holy Orders choosing their allegiances carefully. Whoever manages to have the Orders on side between the Pope and the Emperor (yay, the Pope has two Emperors to deal with!) may influence which doctrine dominates in the Levant. If it goes Catholic then the East becomes more isolated, if it goes Orthodox, the Schism is tilted against the Pope. Although, an attempt to close the Schism may be the price the Pope asks of Alexios in the first place.
 
'organize' a large mass of military that early in Western Europe? Have fun.

The OTL Crusades were a semi-directed mob of independent, independently funded nobles with reasonably similar goals. This was the best that could be realistically achieved, given the time.

If the Pope says 'you've got to give up your secular power and join a celibate Holy Order to participate', then he's limiting it to 3rd sons and down. And where is he going to get the money to pay for the (at the time) huge costs of moving such masses of people that far?

Kings and nobles raised their own funding (sometimes imposing significant strain on their lands). If the Kings aren't going, why would they do that?
 
'organize' a large mass of military that early in Western Europe? Have fun.

Define "a large mass". William the Conqueror was able to get 10,000 men for his invasion of England, and Harold had about the same amount to oppose him. A force of ten or twenty thousand knights shouldn't have been impossible to organise. You could also have separate armies -- say, one from France, one from the HRE, and one from Italy, all of around 10,000 men each -- who could be organised separately and go via different routes to help the Emperor, in which case you could theoretically have a rather large total force heading out.
 
Define "a large mass". William the Conqueror was able to get 10,000 men for his invasion of England, and Harold had about the same amount to oppose him. A force of ten or twenty thousand knights shouldn't have been impossible to organise. You could also have separate armies -- say, one from France, one from the HRE, and one from Italy, all of around 10,000 men each -- who could be organised separately and go via different routes to help the Emperor, in which case you could theoretically have a rather large total force heading out.
But, again, William raised those 10k men from the resources of a major duchy - in order to gain a kingdom. And the supply chain was only just across the channel. Who's going to raise that kind of army - and then hand it over to someone else (the Pope)? Answer: no one in the Middle Ages.
 
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