AHC & WI: Confederate John Ericsson

What it says on the tin. What needs to be done to have Swedish inventor John Ericsson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ericsson
who IOTL invented the USS Monitor to submit his talents and designs to the CS Navy instead of the US navy during the US Civil War?

IOTL, Ericsson before 1861 had a strained relationship with the US Navy after the USS Princeton disaster so is it not too much of a stretch to have him give his talents to the Confederacy instead of the Union. Would the Confederacy want or be able to build an analouge to the Monitor? How does this effect the war as a whole?
 
What it says on the tin. What needs to be done to have Swedish inventor John Ericsson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ericsson
who IOTL invented the USS Monitor to submit his talents and designs to the CS Navy instead of the US navy during the US Civil War?

IOTL, Ericsson before 1861 had a strained relationship with the US Navy after the USS Princeton disaster so is it not too much of a stretch to have him give his talents to the Confederacy instead of the Union. Would the Confederacy want or be able to build an analouge to the Monitor? How does this effect the war as a whole?

Ericsson having a problem with the U.S. Navy doesn't mean he'd support the Confederacy.

And no, the Confederacy could not, at least not nearly as quickly or nearly as well as the OTL design.

It lacks the industry in so many ways it hurts to think about.
 
Ericsson having a problem with the U.S. Navy doesn't mean he'd support the Confederacy.

And no, the Confederacy could not, at least not nearly as quickly or nearly as well as the OTL design.

It lacks the industry in so many ways it hurts to think about.
I don't mean to be a bugger but could you provide some specifics and sources on what factory set ups the CSA lacked which where necessary to build a monitor.
 
I don't mean to be a bugger but could you provide some specifics and sources on what factory set ups the CSA lacked which where necessary to build a monitor.

All of this is based on the easily available information on Confederate industry, so here's the list of the biggies that I can think of offhand:

Steam engines
: There's what, four factories in the entire Confederacy that can do this, assuming they're not doing something else? Tredgar being one. And all the ones it used for its own ironclads were various levels of wretched - the Virginia's engines were not very good ones which had soaked in salt water for a while and had needed repair when it put into Norfolk. Yet that was what the CSA had to work with after raising the hulk and thinking of what to do with it other than preserve it as a monument to what the US Navy could afford to throw away but which it couldn't build to begin with.

Shipbuilding industry
: Underwhelming at best. And building it at New Orleans puts it far away from the best industrial works in the Confederacy.

Armor plate: Consider how much trouble the Confederacy had with its ironclads, none of which had armor over six inches thick (the Virginia had four inches of armor). The Monitor has eight inches.

That's a lot of iron and iron plate production given Confederate resources.

Related, so listed here rather than its own section:
Not to mention that the hull itself is made of iron - which takes more iron diverted to this, and more effort. Just about every CSA ship was an ironclad, in the sense of wood covered in iron. That wasn't because it sounded better than ironhull.

The ship's cannon are probably easiest to find a way to find adequate substitutes for, certainly vs. wooden vessels.


It's a bit like asking "Could Russia have the world's first air force?", really.
 
In other words, yes it could. It just wouldn't be exactly the same and would either require a different allocation of resources, or a CSA which can get more resources. Possibly both.

I think the bigger deal here is not that the South gets Ericsson, but that the North doesn't.

And even bigger than that getting Ericsson to design for the South and not just sit the war out completely.
 
In other words, yes it could. It just wouldn't be exactly the same and would either require a different allocation of resources, or a CSA which can get more resources. Possibly both.

I think the bigger deal here is not that the South gets Ericsson, but that the North doesn't.

And even bigger than that getting Ericsson to design for the South and not just sit the war out completely.

It's not "wouldn't be exactly the same". It's "anything the Confederacy could built would be a cheap imitation at best, and without any of the advantages that made Ericsson's design preferable to the OTL Confederate one" - even the turret edge is neatly balanced by the fact there are only two guns, and a sluggish and unmaneuverable Monitor (or whatever it's called, but let's stick with the OTL name) will bear more resemblance to the eggshell Manassas than anything worth the investment.

And seriously, to look at one of the biggest reasons CSA ironclads sucked: The CSA can't just take a riverboat or something and stick its engine in here, not if it wants anything like OTL's Monitor - heck, maybe even "if it wants anything that will work". So that means that engine has to be built.

And the iron plates produced. And the hull produced. And everything else. Which is a significant demand on Confederate industry, but theoretically possible - if the CSA is willing to accept that much effort diverted for this. Do they not (re)build the Merrimack at all? Do they try both at the same time (bad, bad idea, but not something I'd put past the CSA)?

And of course, why would the CSA necessarily accept this design? Obviously it could, but it's not an irrelevant question for anyone trying to get alternate designs to OTL used - why would it be preferred to the OTL design? It's not as if its been tested and proven as of Ericsson's offer, so there's no way anyone can say "It's definitely better." - and Ericsson was to diplomatic what Jackson was to atheistic.
 
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IOTL, Ericsson before 1861 had a strained relationship with the US Navy after the USS Princeton disaster so is it not too much of a stretch to have him give his talents to the Confederacy instead of the Union.

Ericsson had a strained relationship with the US Navy, but an excellent one with DeLamater Iron Works, where he had free reign to experiment. Not counting Ericcson's personal friendship with Cornelius DeLamater, there is not Confederate Ironworks that can offer Ericcson as good of facilities or that would offer him as much freedom to experiment.
 
Ericsson had a strained relationship with the US Navy, but an excellent one with DeLamater Iron Works, where he had free reign to experiment. Not counting Ericcson's personal friendship with Cornelius DeLamater, there is not Confederate Ironworks that can offer Ericcson as good of facilities or that would offer him as much freedom to experiment.

That sounds like a crucial element given the issues that came up with the Monitor's design - none insolvable (well, except for things like low freeboard), but all in need of that kind of environment.
 
Also since he was born in Sweden he was much more likely than not anti-slavery. This adds to the difficulty in seeing him help the CSA. I can see him sitting out the war , joining the CSA is considerably more difficult.
 
...
I think the bigger deal here is not that the South gets Ericsson, but that the North doesn't. ...

For me, this is where it gets really interesting as I've never been much of a fan of Ericsson's designs.

I think a far more realistic POD would be for the relations between Ericsson and the USN/ DeLamater Ironworks to sour to the point of Ericsson returning to Sweden sometime prior to the ACW.

Without Ericsson and his guarantee of the Monitor in 100 days, early Union work on the Ironclads probably centers around the USS Galena and the USS New Ironsides. With the extra resources freed up by the USS Monitor I'd wager to say that both ships are completed ahead of schedule. The Galena probably sees service in time to take part in the Battle of Hampton Roads...though how she does against the CSS Virginia is anyone's guess (depending on the circumstances of TTL's battle she might do better/worse).

On a larger scale however, I think it's reasonable to assume that the USN of the American Civil War will be centered around casemate ironclads resembling the CSS Virginia rather than Monitors. IMO this would make for a more effective Union Navy and one more suited to maintaining it's force postwar and projecting it's power abroad. Especially if the USS New Ironsides is adopted as the model for US Naval construction...

A stronger American Navy post war could lead to an earlier Spanish American War following TTL's Virginius Affair.

As for Ericsson in the south...perhaps a POD could have his wife die in some sort of accident? He then falls for a "southern belle" and proceeds to throw his loyalties with her family? Admittedly it's a stretch...though I think Ericsson's work with Torpedoes would be far more beneficial to the Confederacy than his work with Monitors. Although his monitor designs might attract enough interest to warrant some attention even though they'd be horrible due to the paucity of resources and expertise in the southern states.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
One of the reasons the Confederacy designed ironclads they way they did was because they lacked the ability to produce bent armored plating, which one would need to produce vessels like the Monitor.
 
For me, this is where it gets really interesting as I've never been much of a fan of Ericsson's designs.

To be honest Ericsson's monitor was a deadend design, including his turret. The construction and deployment of monitors during the ACW became heavily politized so much so that the accomplishments of the USS New Ironsides, let alone those ironclads designed by James Eads, are unfairly forgotten.
 
To be honest Ericsson's monitor was a deadend design, including his turret. The construction and deployment of monitors during the ACW became heavily politized so much so that the accomplishments of the USS New Ironsides, let alone those ironclads designed by James Eads, are unfairly forgotten.

The City class Ironclads/New Ironsides are probably going to be the foundation upon which a Monitor-less USN will be built. IMO this leaves the USN a much more potent force both during the ACW and after it.

Though I wonder how a City Class Ironclad would hold up against the Virginia...
 
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