AHC/WI: Chinese/Korean conquest of Japan (Not Mongol)

How could the Chinese or Koreans conquer Japan? Mongols cannot be involved in the invasion. Though displaced people as a result of nomadic incursions could be a catalyst for the invasion.
 
To a degree, it originally occurred when Baekje migrants gradually moved to the Japanese islands, which were not unified at the time, from at least the 4th century AD to its fall in 660, along with other population movements from Goguryeo, Silla, Gaya, and the Chinese states in power at the time. However, they were cultural transfers, and probably not "invasions," so it might not be what be what you're looking for.

In terms of China invading Japan, they would have to take over Korea first, which would be extremely hard to do given what occurred IOTL.

I'll provide more details, including possible PoDs, when I have more time tomorrow.
 
There was an excellent timeline begun on the Writer's Forum where Silla (IIRC) went to the support of those Korean colonies at some point. This set them up as the protectors of the Korean community there before any particular concept of Japan actually existed, allowing them to gradually achieve hegemony over the three islands. Then as the Korean statelets began to fall out, Silla had access to islander levies and was able to unify the peninsula.

Korea is actually easier to arrange, size notwithstanding, because it has much simpler security concerns. China wouldn't naturally turn to Japanese annexation for either liebensraum or as a way of resolving a threat. It had enormous swathes of land to the south to colonize for an emperor interested in expanding the sphere of the Han, and the assimilation of what now is dismissed as merely "southern China" wasn't properly completed until the Ming, or even the Qing in spots. With such prizes to the south, Japan, where a little bad weather can ruin the rice crop, was far less appealing. Nor would it be a response to the Japanese threat, because the Mongol Question was the relevant issue for Chinese security for two straight millenia. Piddling naval raids that could be avoided easily by cracking down on corrupt coastal administrators? Relatively meaningless.

For a Chinese dynasty to seek Japanese annexation, it would have to have resolved the Mongol threat to its satisfaction and become convinced that further southern expansion/development was not practical. In practice, that point wasn't reached until the mid-Qing dynasty, which hardly makes a promising case. Theoretically an earlier dynasty could get itself into that position, or if the Europeans stayed out perhaps the Qing themselves might have made the attempt, but it's no certain thing.
 
Mongol invasion of Japan in OTL was pretty much Korean invasion, since it was encouraged by the then King of Korea (who was Khubilai's son-in-law) and had it succeeded, Japan would've been assigned to Korean mandate.
 
If you want a Chinese and Korean conquest of Japan, I would point to the co-operation between Tang China and Silla when they attacked Japan and Paekche remnants at Baekgang (or Paekkang). The Japanese expected an invasion, which is why they built a series of fortresses for that purpose, though I'm not sure if technically they were meant to deter specifically Tang China or specifically Silla.

Let's say Japan is perceived as still being a threat to security on the Korean Peninsula despite its loss in 663. Or, it could win the battle instead. Either way, Silla and Tang decide to focus on this third threat before they turn their weapons against each other. The result could be a joint invasion of Japan.

There's been the idea lately that Japan historically was conquered by Koreans, or Korean colonies, or invading horse nomads who traveled through Korea, or whatever variant of the idea happens to be in fashion. However, while I think it's an interesting enough idea that I won't dismiss it out of hand, I also think proponents of such ideas are motivated almost entirely by nationalistic sentiments, so I don't accept their conclusions.
 
The earliest possible invasion would be the one depicted on the Gwanggaeto Stele, in which a passage could be interpreted to read that Gwanggaeto invaded Wa (Baekje) around 400 in order to prevent further raids. However, that passage is subject to various interpretations because some characters are missing, and the lack of punctuation makes it hard to definitively state what it actually says. Regardless, I believe that it would have been possible for Gwanggaeto to invade the Japanese islands, and in my timeline, he did so after capturing Baekje's capital, then attacking Japan later on in order to break the Baekje-Gaya-Japan alliance. However, regardless of the situation, Goguryeo would have probably been content with generally leaving Japan to its own affairs after conquering/unifying Japan south of central Honshu or so.

Another possibility is during the 9th century, when Jang Bogo controlled significant areas of the coastline around the peninsula, and during the Later Three Kingdoms Period, when the peninsula was divided among Silla, Hubaekje, and Goryeo. Political turmoil in Silla forced many to become pirates, and they started raiding the coastline in order to obtain what they needed. Although it is unknown whether the Chinese coast was raided, several Japanese records state that pirates from Silla attacked starting around 811, and occasional raids continued until around 895. The lack of corroborating Korean records suggests that the government had very little control over the situation at the time.

The raids before Jang Bogo became prominent could indicate Silla's fragile situation at the time, as it was forced to pay tribute to the Tang, including sending people over, while the attacks from 828-841/6 were probably directed by Jang Bogo, or by those who were pressured by him due to his dominance along the Yellow Sea. The raids afterwards could indicate a deterioration of the political situation in Silla, which intensified after 887, during Jinseong's rule, and could have also included those from Goryeo and Hubaekje as well. However, none of the individuals involved in the various raids had the intent to actively expand into the Japanese islands, and were probably content with obtaining what they needed from the coast. Jang Bogo was eventually assassinated because the ruler was afraid that he would take over the throne after marrying the princess, suggesting that it would be extremely unlikely for the government to sponsor active expeditions, in fear that he would gain too much power.

The last possibility that I can think of would be after the Japanese left Korea during the Imjin War for the second time. However, the government attempted to curtail the navy's actions, including imprisoning Yi Sun-shin for disobeying orders, even though his actions were due to logistics. He was not reinstated until Won Gyun, who was forced to follow orders even though he thought that it would be suicide to engage the Japanese directly, lost more than 90% of his ships in the Battle of Chilcheollyang. In other words, unless either the Ming or Joseon government was determined to pursue the Japanese to the islands, it would be highly unlikely due to the high casualties and the Korean government's fear of generals that they would be unable to handle.

In terms of China invading Japan, they would first have to take Korea in order to deal with logistics. Korea was invaded by the Yan (Warring States Period), Qin, Han, Cao Wei, Former/Later Yan, Sui, Tang, Khitan Liao, Jurchen Jin, Mongols, Japan (Hideyoshi), and the Manchus (Qing), but only the Han was successful in conquering and absorbing an entire state, while others were content with vassalizing a state, left after sacking a capital, or failed to subdue a Korean state. Regardless, none of the states were successful in directly controlling the southern portion of the peninsula. The most notable cases of Korean resistance were during Goguryeo's 70-year war with the Sui and Tang, in which the former did not collapse until a Silla-Tang alliance advanced from both north and south, and Goryeo's 40-year war with the Mongols, in which although the country was devastated, the military government refused to surrender until the leading general was assassinated. In the latter case, this meant that Goryeo became the only Mongol vassal under direct political control, instead of becoming completely absorbed into a Mongol state.

If you want a Chinese and Korean conquest of Japan, I would point to the co-operation between Tang China and Silla when they attacked Japan and Paekche remnants at Baekgang (or Paekkang). The Japanese expected an invasion, which is why they built a series of fortresses for that purpose, though I'm not sure if technically they were meant to deter specifically Tang China or specifically Silla.

Let's say Japan is perceived as still being a threat to security on the Korean Peninsula despite its loss in 663. Or, it could win the battle instead. Either way, Silla and Tang decide to focus on this third threat before they turn their weapons against each other. The result could be a joint invasion of Japan.

The issue with this scenario is that Goguryeo was still standing under Yeon Gaesomun, who was alive and well until 665/6, and that Silla quickly turned on the Tang in 670, soon after Goguryeo had been conquered in 668, in order to prevent from falling under Tang rule. If the Silla-Tang alliance headed to Japan, then Goguryeo, which had close ties with the latter, could have sailed to Japan or attempted to disrupt supply lines. There is also a remote possibility that Goguryeo could have attacked the Tang directly in order to prevent an encirclement from three sides, and they could have potentially utilized the Turks' aid by urging them to revolt against the Tang, although having them doing so twice would be a bit of a stretch. Meanwhile, Silla would be extremely wary of heading to Japan, as they would fear an attack from Goguryeo, and would be surrendered on two sides from Tang-occupied Baekje and Japan if the latter was successfully taken. In fact, in this scenario, it's possible that Silla and Goguryeo could ally with each other to push the Tang out, but this could potentially lead to the loss of possessions in Japan in the short run.
 
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See, I've always wondered about claims that Kwanggaeto invaded Japan. I mean, it's certainly not recorded in Japanese or Chinese sources. And if they're attacking the Daifang (or Taepang) Commandery, Japan clearly has a presence on the Continent. But this is a minor issue, and as you can indicate by my short-hand, this is not my main focus.

Text that's my main focus
What navy? I don't remember any particular naval resistance to either Sui or Tang, nor can I recall any naval assaults by Koguryo against either Chinese Dynasty. Given how many naval assaults reached Pyongyang, I would assert that if Koguryo had a navy worthy of the name, it must be a very poor one. Now, maybe Koguryo did have a navy, one that only participated in campaigns against other Korean states, which is why I haven't heard of it, but I will assert that Koguryo will be capable of doing absolutely nothing to prevent

A Silla/Koguryo alliance in the 660s seems rather unlikely to me. I mean, it's not impossible, but it would reduce to waste all of that effort by Silla to eliminate Koguryo in the first place. The Turks are not that strong during this time. A rebellion would be very damaging, but I assume even they wouldn't revolt given how they didn't do so historically. If Koguryo could make the Turks (I assume you mean the Eastern Turks) revolt on cue, such a strategy would have been employed when Tang China began bearing on Pyongyang. The fact it wasn't employed suggests that it wouldn't work.
 
See, I've always wondered about claims that Kwanggaeto invaded Japan. I mean, it's certainly not recorded in Japanese or Chinese sources. And if they're attacking the Daifang (or Taepang) Commandery, Japan clearly has a presence on the Continent. But this is a minor issue, and as you can indicate by my short-hand, this is not my main focus.

Well, it's not really my main focus either, although it is somewhat of a major one in my timeline, and the main invasions will occur later. The reasons for not being included in Japanese/Chinese sources were probably that Japan was certainly not a unified entity at the time, meaning that if the attack occurred, it was on a state that later ceased to exist, and in terms of China, they were more busy about handling the chaotic situation in North China then worrying about what was going on between Korea and Japan.

In response to the Japanese attacking the past commandery, as it ceased to exist around 314, Japan was allied with Baekje at the time, and if I can borrow one of your past statements, Japan attacking Daebang/Daifang makes just as much sense as Baekje attacking Liaoxi or attacking other Chinese states from that area.

What navy? I don't remember any particular naval resistance to either Sui or Tang, nor can I recall any naval assaults by Koguryo against either Chinese Dynasty. Given how many naval assaults reached Pyongyang, I would assert that if Koguryo had a navy worthy of the name, it must be a very poor one. Now, maybe Koguryo did have a navy, one that only participated in campaigns against other Korean states, which is why I haven't heard of it, but I will assert that Koguryo will be capable of doing absolutely nothing to prevent

A Silla/Koguryo alliance in the 660s seems rather unlikely to me. I mean, it's not impossible, but it would reduce to waste all of that effort by Silla to eliminate Koguryo in the first place. The Turks are not that strong during this time. A rebellion would be very damaging, but I assume even they wouldn't revolt given how they didn't do so historically. If Koguryo could make the Turks (I assume you mean the Eastern Turks) revolt on cue, such a strategy would have been employed when Tang China began bearing on Pyongyang. The fact it wasn't employed suggests that it wouldn't work.

In the first Sui expedition, Gang Isik led a naval detachment of about 50,000 troops and defeated a Sui navy in the Bohai Sea, and later advanced on land to Yingzhou, west of the border. During the second campaign, the Goguryeo strategy was to purposely conduct a feint attack with a limited amount of troops, then retreat into Pyongyang. Because there were two main walls, the Sui forces were tricked into looting after thinking that they had repulsed the first ambush, but were attacked and forced to flee while they were looting. The following two invasions never reached Pyongyang, so there was no need to launch a navy.

In the first Tang expedition, a navy engaged the Tang off the waters of the Liaodong Peninsula, preventing them from reaching Pyongyang, although the resistance at Ansi Fortress was crucial to the Tang retreat. The second campaign, which had a solely naval purpose, as they decided to bypass the Thousand-li Wall, did come close to Pyongyang, but were ultimately repelled by the navy once again. The third campaign was successful in taking Pyongyang, but as I stated before, it was a two-front invasion in which Silla was also involved, so it is not as relevant as the previous ones. In other words, Goguryeo certainly did possess a navy that was strong enough to repulse the Chinese multiple times, and at times conducted offensive maneuvers, which might have been carried out to a greater extent if there was a need for it.

I also agree that a Goguryeo-Silla alliance would be unlikely, but Kim Chun-chu did approach Yeon Gaesomun first with hopes for an alliance, and Silla would do anything from being outflanked on two/three fronts, as even Goguryeo was unable to resist in such a situation. The Turks did revolt around 645 (during the first Tang invasion) when Yeon Gaesomun prodded them to do so, but I admit that it would be highly unlikely for him to request for another rebellion, as the first one ultimately failed.
 
Well, it's not really my main focus either, although it is somewhat of a major one in my timeline, and the main invasions will occur later. The reasons for not being included in Japanese/Chinese sources were probably that Japan was certainly not a unified entity at the time, meaning that if the attack occurred, it was on a state that later ceased to exist, and in terms of China, they were more busy about handling the chaotic situation in North China then worrying about what was going on between Korea and Japan.

In response to the Japanese attacking the past commandery, as it ceased to exist around 314, Japan was allied with Baekje at the time, and if I can borrow one of your past statements, Japan attacking Daebang/Daifang makes just as much sense as Baekje attacking Liaoxi or attacking other Chinese states from that area.

I agree Japan wasn't unified at the time, but who else could Wa be referring to if not the Yamato polity which is the only one on the islands capable of invading Korea at this time? Unless there's a smaller state which you'd propose as the Japanese state which is crossing the ocean and attacking Paekche and Silla (of course, without conquering them, any argument that Japan conquered Paekche and Silla is rather silly). If such a state existed, it curiously did not send tribute to the Chinese. I remember the Japanese/Wa ruler at this time asking the Chinese Emperors of Southern China to be made Protector or King of Silla and Paekche and Imna and other ridiculous claims at the time.

Also, was the place still called Daifang? If so, then it makes sense why the Kwanggaeto stele would say that the Japanese attacked Daifang. Combine it with the mention of the Wa filling up Silla's cities and breaking down the walls of Silla's cities, and it becomes very difficult to deny that there are clearly some Wa people hanging out in Korea. You can go with the interpretation that these are all references to Silla/Paekche's colonies in Japan, but these aren't considered historically proven.

I don't think you're explicitly saying this, but it doesn't make sense to me to claim the grammar of the stele allows for an interpretation Koguryo to cross the sea, but turn around and say references to the Wa at Daifang or Silla's capital are actually historical anachronisms. If anything, the new interpretation of Koguryo invading Japan should be the anachronism.

In the first Sui expedition, Gang Isik led a naval detachment of about 50,000 troops and defeated a Sui navy in the Bohai Sea, and later advanced on land to Yingzhou, west of the border. During the second campaign, the Goguryeo strategy was to purposely conduct a feint attack with a limited amount of troops, then retreat into Pyongyang. Because there were two main walls, the Sui forces were tricked into looting after thinking that they had repulsed the first ambush, but were attacked and forced to flee while they were looting. The following two invasions never reached Pyongyang, so there was no need to launch a navy.

In the first Tang expedition, a navy engaged the Tang off the waters of the Liaodong Peninsula, preventing them from reaching Pyongyang, although the resistance at Ansi Fortress was crucial to the Tang retreat. The second campaign, which had a solely naval purpose, as they decided to bypass the Thousand-li Wall, did come close to Pyongyang, but were ultimately repelled by the navy once again. The third campaign was successful in taking Pyongyang, but as I stated before, it was a two-front invasion in which Silla was also involved, so it is not as relevant as the previous ones. In other words, Goguryeo certainly did possess a navy that was strong enough to repulse the Chinese multiple times, and at times conducted offensive maneuvers, which might have been carried out to a greater extent if there was a need for it.

I also agree that a Goguryeo-Silla alliance would be unlikely, but Kim Chun-chu did approach Yeon Gaesomun first with hopes for an alliance, and Silla would do anything from being outflanked on two/three fronts, as even Goguryeo was unable to resist in such a situation. The Turks did revolt around 645 (during the first Tang invasion) when Yeon Gaesomun prodded them to do so, but I admit that it would be highly unlikely for him to request for another rebellion, as the first one ultimately failed.

I forgot about 598. On the other hand, while I have one academic source that attributes the navy's loss then to bad winds, for the claim that it was defeated, I only have Wikipedia as a source. The 614 invasion didn't reach Pyongyang, but it was a naval invasion that still landed on the Korean Peninsula.

As for the other information you put forward about Koguryo's navy, I'm not finding it online. I'm not going to take your word for it, and going back to the original argument, I'm certainly not convinced Koguryo had a navy which could have implemented operations in Japan. To be fair, I'm not sure China and Silla could have either, though I will assert that they would have a much greater chance of success. If Koguryo's naval strategy is to feint and encircle soldiers attacking Pyongyang, it certainly doesn't seem like an internationally-capable navy.

I couldn't find any evidence for a Turkish invasion. The closest I got was this guy, who did attack the Tang in 645, but he's not a Turk.
 
There's been the idea lately that Japan historically was conquered by Koreans, or Korean colonies, or invading horse nomads who traveled through Korea, or whatever variant of the idea happens to be in fashion. However, while I think it's an interesting enough idea that I won't dismiss it out of hand, I also think proponents of such ideas are motivated almost entirely by nationalistic sentiments, so I don't accept their conclusions.

Well historians can argue, but blood tells.

Or rather, the genetics tell ... a mixed tale.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/japanorigin.htm?iframe=true&width=100%&height=100%
 
I agree Japan wasn't unified at the time, but who else could Wa be referring to if not the Yamato polity which is the only one on the islands capable of invading Korea at this time? Unless there's a smaller state which you'd propose as the Japanese state which is crossing the ocean and attacking Paekche and Silla (of course, without conquering them, any argument that Japan conquered Paekche and Silla is rather silly). If such a state existed, it curiously did not send tribute to the Chinese. I remember the Japanese/Wa ruler at this time asking the Chinese Emperors of Southern China to be made Protector or King of Silla and Paekche and Imna and other ridiculous claims at the time.

Also, was the place still called Daifang? If so, then it makes sense why the Kwanggaeto stele would say that the Japanese attacked Daifang. Combine it with the mention of the Wa filling up Silla's cities and breaking down the walls of Silla's cities, and it becomes very difficult to deny that there are clearly some Wa people hanging out in Korea. You can go with the interpretation that these are all references to Silla/Paekche's colonies in Japan, but these aren't considered historically proven.

I don't think you're explicitly saying this, but it doesn't make sense to me to claim the grammar of the stele allows for an interpretation Koguryo to cross the sea, but turn around and say references to the Wa at Daifang or Silla's capital are actually historical anachronisms. If anything, the new interpretation of Koguryo invading Japan should be the anachronism.

Well, I mentioned it in more detail in my timeline, but as I stated earlier in this thread, Baekje, Gaya, and the Wa had an alliance, in which they coordinated their forces in order to attack Silla and Daebang/Daifang. The main reason for this was that Gwanggaeto's expansions were threatening Baekje's trade routes, which linked North and South China with Gaya, Silla (although it allied with Goguryeo), and Japan. The Samguk Sagi also records that the Wa had conducted raids before Gwanggaeto came to power, but it also faced attacks from Gaya as well, and there is nothing indicating that outsiders managed to seize significant portions of territory for more than a few months. Also, the area within the Sobaek Mountains was probably not unified until the mid-4th century or so, which would explain Silla's weaknesses.

In other words, yes, the Wa did conduct raids on the areas mentioned, but the Gwanggaeto Stele makes it clear that it attacked Daebang/Daifang in conjunction with Baekje and Gaya forces, which makes the situation more reasonable. Saying that the Wa invaded and threatened the peninsula is like saying that Silla managed to conquer Goguryeo. The two statements are theoretically true, but they were able to do so by allying with stronger states, which explains how they were able to carry out the actions. Also, in terms of who the Wa exactly were, there is no definitive source which states that the islands from Kyushu to southern Honshu were unified before 500, so I would assume that there were various statelets, some of which agreed to ally with the states on the peninsula.

In terms of Daebang/Daifang, I was making the argument that it was no longer a commandery, and not arguing about the name itself or specific location. That's all.

I forgot about 598. On the other hand, while I have one academic source that attributes the navy's loss then to bad winds, for the claim that it was defeated, I only have Wikipedia as a source. The 614 invasion didn't reach Pyongyang, but it was a naval invasion that still landed on the Korean Peninsula.

As for the other information you put forward about Koguryo's navy, I'm not finding it online. I'm not going to take your word for it, and going back to the original argument, I'm certainly not convinced Koguryo had a navy which could have implemented operations in Japan. To be fair, I'm not sure China and Silla could have either, though I will assert that they would have a much greater chance of success. If Koguryo's naval strategy is to feint and encircle soldiers attacking Pyongyang, it certainly doesn't seem like an internationally-capable navy.

I couldn't find any evidence for a Turkish invasion. The closest I got was this guy, who did attack the Tang in 645, but he's not a Turk.

The problem with attempting to find sources is that I either consult Korean translations of the originals, or secondary sources in Korean, like documentaries, which usually do not have translations in English, so you would just have to take my word for it. Also, the only extant sources that recorded the details of the Goguryeo-Sui/Tang Wars are the Book of Sui and the Old/New Book of Tang, and the Sanguk Sagi often copied them verbatim. In other words, the details are heavily skewed towards the victors, and some of them do not make sense, as the latter records consistently record a string of Chinese victories, and omit almost all mention of defeats.

For example, in 645, during the Battle of Mount Zupil/Zhubi, the Chinese sources mention that Go Yeon-su and Go Hye-jin surrendered about 36,800 forces out of about 150,000 to Taizong of Tang, making it seem as if they were the commanders and gave up when they realized the situation. However, it curiously omits any mention of Go Jeong-ui, who was the actual commander, and his decisions, which were probably contrary to the two generals. In other words, it's possible that although the commander realized that it would be better to retreat inside the fortress, or conduct different tactics, the two generals attacked the Tang directly and were defeated. The records also state that only about 3,000 Mohe/Malgal troops were buried alive, but based on other events around the time period, it's likely that the punishment was applied to the entire force, as similar mass burials exceeding 10,000 were very common. In addition, taking the rest prisoner would have just tied the Tang down, as they would have to provide for their supplies as well, which would have been extremely undesirable. Another case is the Tang navy in the same year that conquered Bisa Fortress. Although it presumably advanced further to the east soon after, or headed north in order to aid those attacking Geonan, which ultimately failed as the Goguryeo forces held out, there is once again no mention of the navy, which suggests that it was either tied down or had been annihilated by the navy from Pyongyang.

In terms of the first Sui expedition, there is no mention of Gang Isik or a Goguryeo navy defeating a Chinese one in the Book of Sui, but the Joseon Sanggosa, compiled in 1931 by Sin Chae-ho, and relied on testimonies from individuals and sources that are no longer extant, provides some details on the admiral. He was stated to be the founder of the Jinju Gang clan, and there are some genealogical records, along with a burial place and marker in what had been Simyang, although the stele was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution, leaving only the base. In other words, although he was probably an actual historical figure, the lack of extant historical records make it difficult to parse the details. Although both Goguryeo and Baekje had compiled numerous historical records, before and after the Sui/Tang invasions, many of them were ultimately lost after Sabi was destroyed in 660 and Pyongyang in 668, leaving few by the time that the Samguk Sagi was compiled in 1145, and even that is a second version.

You might be correct in that the Xueyantuo, instead of the Eastern Turks, rebelled, but I can't find the source that I was looking for, so I'll get back to you if I have time.
 
-first half-
Well, to me, as long as you're acknowledging that the Kwanggaeto stele is most likely referring to actions on the Korean Peninsula, and not among Korean colonies in Japan, I'm not really going to get up in arms.

However, regarding the strength of the Japanese, I would slightly dispute the matter. If according to the stele, Paekche isn't concluding a peace with Japan until 399, then who would the Wa have been allied with on the peninsula prior? Just Kaya? I find it hard to believe that Japan is occupying Silla cities after just a year after allying with Paekche. It just doesn't seem to me like that's reasonable. The 404 incursion mentions only the Wa; the parts where they're allied with Paekche's soldier is an addition by scholars based on the fact that it makes the most sense. But technically, not part of the stele we now have. As for Wa threatening the peninsula only in cooperation with other states, it doesn't seem likely to me if Wa is crossing the sea and threatening Paekche as it must have been doing before hand.
-second half now of equal importance-
Well, this isn't convincing. The Tang navy isn't mentioned after the battle of Bisa, so it must have been attacked and destroyed by Koguryo's navy? Not a necessary conclusion to draw.

I'm also not convinced about Shin Chaeho's argument. I don't know where Simyang is, and I certainly can't think of sources he could have uncovered that nobody else found already, unless he's come across the equivalent of Korea's Bamboo Annals.

By the way, I'm not arguing anything new. I still don't see any proof of how a Koguryo navy could help Japan. And it's not that I don't believe you, and it's not that I distrust you. But if I took everybody's statements on the forum at face value, I couldn't contribute to any discussion.
 
Well, to me, as long as you're acknowledging that the Kwanggaeto stele is most likely referring to actions on the Korean Peninsula, and not among Korean colonies in Japan, I'm not really going to get up in arms.

However, regarding the strength of the Japanese, I would slightly dispute the matter. If according to the stele, Paekche isn't concluding a peace with Japan until 399, then who would the Wa have been allied with on the peninsula prior? Just Kaya? I find it hard to believe that Japan is occupying Silla cities after just a year after allying with Paekche. It just doesn't seem to me like that's reasonable. The 404 incursion mentions only the Wa; the parts where they're allied with Paekche's soldier is an addition by scholars based on the fact that it makes the most sense. But technically, not part of the stele we now have. As for Wa threatening the peninsula only in cooperation with other states, it doesn't seem likely to me if Wa is crossing the sea and threatening Paekche as it must have been doing before hand.

Well, no. You should probably read the entire text of the translated version when you have time. Baekje did conduct a treaty with the Wa in 399, but this treaty was in violation of the mutual agreement in 396 between Goguryeo and Baekje, in which the latter agreed to cease hostilities, in exchange for Gwanggaeto leaving Wirye Fortress, the capital, alone. The stele itself says nothing about previous agreements, of which archeological evidence, such as the seven-branched sword, says otherwise. The entire text itself is only recording bits and pieces of the entire story, of which it specifically states that Baekje and Silla were Goguryeo vassals that had continuously paid tribute.

However, this was far from the case, as the Samguk Sagi records that Baekje and Goguryeo had been continuously been in conflict from 369-396, during which in 371, Gogukwon became the only Goguryeo ruler to be slain in battle, and Gwanggaeto finally brought Baekje to its knees in 396 after surrounding Wirye Fortress. It's also curious that although the Samguk Sagi records Gwanggaeto's yearly clashes with Baekje from 391-4/5, the stele lumps them all together and records the results as if about 60 fortresses were captured in 396, which is logistically impossible.

In other words, although the record itself is reliable in terms of Goguryeo's viewpoints at the time, it is biased toward Goguryeo's exploits, which means that its losses were often minimized or omitted. It is certainly true that Gwanggaeto scored numerous victories against his opponents, but it seems to magically expand them back anachronistically, which seems unreasonable. The stele also omits any mention of the conflict with the Later Yan, which seems strange considering that Goguryeo confronted them several times, then eventually invaded the capital and occupied it for a short period of time.

In terms of the invasions in 400/4, the stele records that the Wa was chased back to Alla in 400, one of the cities of Gaya, which later surrendered, suggesting that some Gaya people were labeled as "Wa," or that there was an alliance between the two, as the Samguk Sagi does not state the Wa invading from Gaya or Baekje. Regarding the 404 invasion, it records "Baekjan" allying with the Wa, and scholars have agreed that the former was a derogatory word for Baekje, as "jan" has connotations of violence, and there was certainly no state named "Baekjan" at the time. Also, the term was also continuously used to refer to Baekje, while its actual name does not appear once in the text.

Well, this isn't convincing. The Tang navy isn't mentioned after the battle of Bisa, so it must have been attacked and destroyed by Koguryo's navy? Not a necessary conclusion to draw.

There are other issues, which I will not discuss in detail here, but the most notable one is that although Goguryeo casualties are recorded, Tang casualties do not appear anywhere in the Book of Old/New Tang. Even if they were unrecorded due to the nature of the campaign, which is highly unlikely considering that those of Goguryeo were mentioned, one would expect later compilers to estimate the losses, but they are nonexistent. Taizong of Tang is also recorded to have looked in the records of the expedition and edited them in order to make him look more favorable, which was unprecedented in Chinese history, as it introduced the ruler's biases. Of course, I'm not arguing whether the specific battles took place or not, but considering some of the omissions, some of the events were probably skewed, and other disasters were probably omitted altogether.

I'm also not convinced about Shin Chaeho's argument. I don't know where Simyang is, and I certainly can't think of sources he could have uncovered that nobody else found already, unless he's come across the equivalent of Korea's Bamboo Annals.

The sources, specifically Seogwak Japrok and Daedong Unhae, probably did exist when he compiled the records, but they are no longer extant, like the ones cited in the Samguk Yusa, such as Baekje's Seogi compiled by Go Heung in 375, that we no longer have copies of. In terms of the latter, although the text cited numerous sources that are no longer extant, no one is questioning whether they were fabricated or not.

In terms of whether texts which have ambiguous sources are reliable or not, I'll provide a different example. Although I fully recognize that numerous passages of the Hwandan Gogi were either fabricated or copied verbatim from previous texts without making the necessary corrections, there are some points which other evidence has proved to be correct. The undisputed publication of the text occurred in 1979, but it states that Mun, a ruler of Balhae, had Daeheung as the era name. It was not until the following year that the tombstone of Princess Jeonghyo was discovered in Manchuria and stated the same thing, so considering that the records were compiled for some time before 1979, it must have relied on previous sources that are no longer extant. Another case is Jangsu's era name, Geonheung, which was previously stated in a Buddhist statue, but originally assumed to be that of a Baekje ruler before the Hwandan Gogi was published. The last is the mention of "five stars arranged in a straight line" in 1733 BC, and research proves that the incident occurred in 1734 BC, which is only a year off.

Again, I acknowledge that the Hwandan Gogi makes numerous ridiculous claims, such as Gojoseon's population and size around 2000 BC, which are too large to be considered reasonable, along with stating that the state had invented an alphabet before the Chinese introduced its writing system. However, as the above evidence shows, some passages were certainly true, although it is unknown exactly which are fabricated/hold anachronistic viewpoints, and which are not, so the text as a whole is unreliable.

By the way, I'm not arguing anything new. I still don't see any proof of how a Koguryo navy could help Japan. And it's not that I don't believe you, and it's not that I distrust you. But if I took everybody's statements on the forum at face value, I couldn't contribute to any discussion.

Well, it's much easier for you to state your points, because you're taking all of the historical records at face value, while I'm trying to convincingly reiterate some historians' viewpoints that there are notable omissions and biases which must be taken into consideration, which is much harder to do.
 
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Some of this stuff is very interesting, but not related to what I said. Some of this stuff is relevant to what I said, but I have grown bored of the issue involved. As such, I'll only talk about a handful of things, the ones that interest me:

The Old Book of Tang was written around 945 CE. The New Book of Tang was written around 1050 CE. This is mainly to emphasize that neither was compiled during the Tang Dynasty, so they're centuries late. It's rather disappointing that neither side mentions the casualties, but if this is the case, I don't know why you'd blame any one person in particular given how information is just lost over time. Plus, after a few minutes of searching, I can't find any casualty results for any of the Tang campaigns, including the ones against the Tibetans or the Eastern Turks. I really don't see it as some Koguryo bias. I would just imagine that later historians somehow managed to lose most of the data.

Shin Chaeho published his book in 1931, right? So what textual sources was he using that were extent then but no longer extent now? Unless he's claiming to have unearthed new sources, which is possible, why is it that we have to wait till the 20th century to hear about Admiral Kang's victory over the Sui navy? That's the reason behind my disbelief: if he's mentioning these old documents, why has nobody done so before?
 
The Old Book of Tang was written around 945 CE. The New Book of Tang was written around 1050 CE. This is mainly to emphasize that neither was compiled during the Tang Dynasty, so they're centuries late. It's rather disappointing that neither side mentions the casualties, but if this is the case, I don't know why you'd blame any one person in particular given how information is just lost over time. Plus, after a few minutes of searching, I can't find any casualty results for any of the Tang campaigns, including the ones against the Tibetans or the Eastern Turks. I really don't see it as some Koguryo bias. I would just imagine that later historians somehow managed to lose most of the data.

In that case, I'll slightly revise my argument. I skimmed through the Korean translations of the sources concerning the conflicts between the Tang and Goguryeo/Baekje, and found out that there are specific mentions of troop movements on the Chinese side, along with the amount of casualties/prisoners on the Korean sides. If the same goes for other Tang conflicts, I find it suspicious that the only omissions are the Tang casualties, while the figures for the opposition remain mostly intact. Of course, a substantial amount of data was probably lost during the centuries between the events and the compiling, but I just find it strange that there is a glaring omission for only the Tang casualties, instead of sporadic omissions for each statistic, which would make more sense.

Shin Chaeho published his book in 1931, right? So what textual sources was he using that were extent then but no longer extent now? Unless he's claiming to have unearthed new sources, which is possible, why is it that we have to wait till the 20th century to hear about Admiral Kang's victory over the Sui navy? That's the reason behind my disbelief: if he's mentioning these old documents, why has nobody done so before?

The only extant verified Korean texts before the 20th century chronicling any event that occurred during the Three Kingdoms Period are the Samguk Sagi/Yusa, of which the latter focuses on myths and legends, so is not necessarily reliable in terms of specific details. The Samguk Sagi relies on both Korean (no longer extant) and Chinese records for events before the Sui invasion, but it suddenly focuses mostly on the Chinese ones afterward. This suggests that Kim Bu-sik was focused on only citing reliable/verified sources, and ignored most of the Korean passages because only fragments remained, or he was unsure about their authenticity/viewpoints. In other words, the vast majority of other records were mostly destroyed during countless numerous invasions from outsiders, and any pieces that remained were almost certainly gone between the time that the Japanese compiled a fabricated version of Korean history in 1925, and the Korean War in 1950-3.
 
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