AHC/WI: Bulgarians restore the Byzantine Empire

Putting this in post-1900 because the Kingdom of Bulgaria really received de facto independence from the Ottomans in 1908, but if there's reason to believe that a Bulgarian state founded no more than a few decades before the beginning of the 20th century could fit the bill, do share.

Is it at all possible for a Bulgarian state to conquer or annex Thrace, Constantinople/the Bosporus, and enough of Greece to be able to plausibly lay claim to being the successors of the Eastenr Roman Empire, should they choose to do so?

I guess these are two separate, yet related questions:

1) What is the most territory the Bulgarians could have plausibly gained during this time period?

2) If that territory includes Constantinople, would there be any desire to declare themselves as a Byzantine successor state (they certainly wouldn't literally call themselves by that name, but you know what I mean)?
 
It doesn't make much sense, because the First and Second Bulgarian Empires were enemies of the Byzantines, as far as I know. They'd rather call themselves the Third Empire, no doubt.
 
It doesn't make much sense, because the First and Second Bulgarian Empires were enemies of the Byzantines, as far as I know. They'd rather call themselves the Third Empire, no doubt.

I actually searched the site after I made this thread, and found this quote quickly:

Restoration of the Byzantine Empire was the fantasy of Ferdinand of Bulgaria, who was reported to have kept full Byzantine emperor regalia on hand against the day when Bulgaria would somehow expand / morph into a latter-day Byzantium.

Thoughts?
 
IMO, the closest you can get is an intense medieval Bulgarian "revivalism" sponsored by the court and government. Then Ferdinand could use that to sneak in a disproportionate amount of Byzantine-inspired imagery, titles, offices etc. After all, there was plenty of Byzantine influence in the medieval Bulgarian state, too, including the sovereign's title ("Tsar of the Bulgarians and the Greeks").

No matter how much Ferdinand might secretly like the idea, explicitly declaring Bulgaria to be anything other than Bulgaria wouldn't fly. Not even if Constantinople is in the picture. And it's rather unlikely for Bulgaria to successfully annex Constantinople in the first place.
 
IMO, the closest you can get is an intense medieval Bulgarian "revivalism" sponsored by the court and government. Then Ferdinand could use that to sneak in a disproportionate amount of Byzantine-inspired imagery, titles, offices etc. After all, there was plenty of Byzantine influence in the medieval Bulgarian state, too, including the sovereign's title ("Tsar of the Bulgarians and the Greeks").

No matter how much Ferdinand might secretly like the idea, explicitly declaring Bulgaria to be anything other than Bulgaria wouldn't fly. Not even if Constantinople is in the picture. And it's rather unlikely for Bulgaria to successfully annex Constantinople in the first place.
They got really close in the First Balkan War.
 
True, but that much success by the Balkan League and Bulgaria would most likely cause the Great Powers to intervene and take the city away from Bulgaria

And give it to who? Back to the Ottomans? Maybe the Greeks? Make it an independent city, a la Danzig?
 

ben0628

Banned
And give it to who? Back to the Ottomans? Maybe the Greeks? Make it an independent city, a la Danzig?

The Russians and Greeks both want it, Great Britain will probably want it to be an international city, while the Germans and Austrians would probably want to restore the Ottomans to pre 1912 borders.

You'd probably get a great power conference held in a nuetral location that'd either result in the permanent destruction of the Ottoman Empire as European nations split the Empire's land among themselves OR you will have Germany and Austria back the Ottomans militarily, play hard ball, and get a earlier WW1
 
They got really close in the First Balkan War.

Eh, they got kinda close to entering Constantinople. But there were still obstacles on the way, and keeping the city would be a different story. It's hard to think of a single Great Power or regional player that would want Bulgaria to have Constantinople. I guess Montenegro would cheer it on, and just maybe Serbia might be inclined to tolerate it (probably not); and that means nothing when everyone else would be pushing against it. For example, Russia was preparing to land troops in the city if the Bulgarians break through the last Ottoman defenses and march in. So the Bulgarian occupation of Constantinople becomes a joint Bulgarian-Russian occupation on day 1...and from there it's all downhill for Bulgaria's chances of annexing the city.
 
I say the Bulgarians grab everthing that isn't painted onto walls and send it back to Sofia or to various cities in Bulgaria. They claim it as at last conquering their age old enemy (not specifying which) and that they are now on top. Of course the Russians will also try to take anything they can, and it would be easier if there was less iconoclasm in Islam, as stealing tiles and calligraphy is more difficult than statues and paintings. I imagine there would be great annoyance if the Czar told the Bulgarians they couldn't use Tsar for themselves, even though they conquered a city of Caesars and the Bulgarians used the title before the Russians.
 
Eh, they got kinda close to entering Constantinople. But there were still obstacles on the way, and keeping the city would be a different story. It's hard to think of a single Great Power or regional player that would want Bulgaria to have Constantinople. I guess Montenegro would cheer it on, and just maybe Serbia might be inclined to tolerate it (probably not); and that means nothing when everyone else would be pushing against it. For example, Russia was preparing to land troops in the city if the Bulgarians break through the last Ottoman defenses and march in. So the Bulgarian occupation of Constantinople becomes a joint Bulgarian-Russian occupation on day 1...and from there it's all downhill for Bulgaria's chances of annexing the city.

Any chance of it being Bulgarian in name as legal fiction that becomes reality during some uprising/civil war in Russia*?

* Likely not the OTL civil war, but something similar might have the Whites migrate to this Mega-Bulgaria state rather than France?


Also, could we see a much earlier POD, with an initially Greco-Bulgarian++ union eventually declaring itself the Empire resurrected?
 
Any chance of it being Bulgarian in name as legal fiction that becomes reality during some uprising/civil war in Russia*?

* Likely not the OTL civil war, but something similar might have the Whites migrate to this Mega-Bulgaria state rather than France?


Also, could we see a much earlier POD, with an initially Greco-Bulgarian++ union eventually declaring itself the Empire resurrected?
I can see it being a reason for the Bulgarians to dislike the Russians, if they steal the glory of the war, only going in after the Bulgarians did the hard work. Perhaps portions of the city are given to Patriarchs (Gonna get messy with the Russians, Greeks, Bulgarians, plus the Orthodox Church under Turkish sway) in an extraterritoriality fashion. As for the Whites migrating, that would be another reason for the Bulgarians to give them the shove, if they last that long. Who needs a munch of soldiers and hundreds of noblemen who are going to look for the nearest Orthodox peasants to lord over?
 
The Russians and Greeks both want it, Great Britain will probably want it to be an international city, while the Germans and Austrians would probably want to restore the Ottomans to pre 1912 borders.

You'd probably get a great power conference held in a nuetral location that'd either result in the permanent destruction of the Ottoman Empire as European nations split the Empire's land among themselves OR you will have Germany and Austria back the Ottomans militarily, play hard ball, and get a earlier WW1

Okay, let's say you get an earlier WW1, with the Ottomans on one side and the Bulgarians on the other. Let's also say the Entente wins this war. Might the Bulgarians be able to hold onto Constantinople and the surrounding areas then, especially if Russia and the Ottoman Empire collapse at least as badly as they did IOTL?
 
Moving from the AHC to the WI, let's say we have an alternate version of WWI that ends with the Kingdom of Bulgaria achieving all of its irredentist aims and more: borders that roughly comport with what they could have gained under the Treaty of San Stefano (prinarily Macedonia and large chunks of Thrace), along with roughly the area that would have been the international zone of the Straits had the Treaty of Sevres stood - including, critically, Constantinople. Heck, let's even say that the Great Powers throw Greece a bone and give it the territory on the Aegean coast of Anatolia that it would have gained under Sevres.

Furthermore, let's say that in the aftermath of all of these gains, Ferdinand conducts an open Byzantine revival in his domain, though whether he literally declares himself a latter-day Roman monarch is an open question.

What happens next? How would such a state interact with the Great Powers of Europe, depending on the end of WWI goes? Again, if Russia collapses into some sort of revolution, I can't see them effectively acting upon any sort of objections.

What about the internal politics of Bulgaria here? This would be a state that includes large numbers of Turks, Greeks, Macedonians, and others (though even in today's Bulgaria IOTL, there's a substantial Turkish population). How stable would it be in the long run?

@AvatarOfKhaine mentioned a Greco-Bulgarian political union - how likely is that under this scenario?
 
Any chance of it being Bulgarian in name as legal fiction that becomes reality during some uprising/civil war in Russia*?

* Likely not the OTL civil war, but something similar might have the Whites migrate to this Mega-Bulgaria state rather than France?

I guess that's possible - the old government in Russia is overthrown by something with no continuity to it whatsoever and the Bulgarians take Constantinople for, er, safekeeping.

Or alternately, Bulgaria is allowed to take all of Thrace, but Constantinople becomes an independent city-state under international supervision...only to be occupied and seized by Bulgaria when the Great Powers that blocked it go to war against each other.
 
I say the Bulgarians grab everthing that isn't painted onto walls and send it back to Sofia or to various cities in Bulgaria. They claim it as at last conquering their age old enemy (not specifying which) and that they are now on top. Of course the Russians will also try to take anything they can, and it would be easier if there was less iconoclasm in Islam, as stealing tiles and calligraphy is more difficult than statues and paintings. I imagine there would be great annoyance if the Czar told the Bulgarians they couldn't use Tsar for themselves, even though they conquered a city of Caesars and the Bulgarians used the title before the Russians.
The title of Bulgaria's monarch was Tsar starting from 1908 when independence was declared and Russia never raised any objections. Which is not surprising, since the Russian monarch was an Emperor, a superior title.
Also, Tsar is pronounced the same in Russian and Bulgarian, so it doesn't really make sense to use different transliterations (and Czar is an awful way to transliterate the word anyway).

What about the internal politics of Bulgaria here? This would be a state that includes large numbers of Turks, Greeks, Macedonians, and others (though even in today's Bulgaria IOTL, there's a substantial Turkish population). How stable would it be in the long run?
This would not be a problem, since the Macedonian ethnic identity was largely entirely formed after WWII under the control of Tito's government in Macedonia. After all, in OTL Bulgaria did annex a large portion of Macedonia and never had any problems with integrating the region (except of course the attempt to change the ethnic identification of the population by force in 1948).
 
This would not be a problem, since the Macedonian ethnic identity was largely entirely formed after WWII under the control of Tito's government in Macedonia. After all, in OTL Bulgaria did annex a large portion of Macedonia and never had any problems with integrating the region (except of course the attempt to change the ethnic identification of the population by force in 1948).

Regardless, what would be the situation of the large Turkish and Greek population in this mega-Bulgaria? Would they be particularly restive? Treated as second-class citizens? Would it make the state more unstable in the long run?
 
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