AHC/WI: Britain won world war 1 without becoming heavily indebted

The easiest way for the British to win is probably for the Germans to fail to capture the nitrate stockpiles at Antwerp (400,000 tonnes) intact, which means they lose the ability to wage industrial scale war before they get the Haber process producing ammonium nitrate at scale, and the western front probably collapses with an Entente victory in 1915.

That would also be a major vindication of British pre-war doctrine about the importance of economic warfare.
 
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The Germans already had a pilot plant operating at Oppau in 1913, ramping up production the following year to 20 tons of nitrogen per annum, but does anyone know when they started their crash expansion programme and more importantly when it started full production?
 
The easiest way for the British to win is probably for the Germans to fail to capture the nitrate stockpiles at Antwerp (400,000 tonnes) intact, which means they lose the ability to wage industrial scale war before they get the Haber process producing ammonium nitrate at scale, and the western front probably collapses with an Entente victory in 1915.

That would also be a major vindication of British pre-war doctrine about the importance of economic warfare.

How to remove that from a city under siege or safely destroy it though would be a problem.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
How to remove that from a city under siege or safely destroy it though would be a problem.
Yeah, the British army was too small to do so. Maybe the French stops attacking Alsace Lorraine, only dig trenches at the French German border to defend, which would require fewer soldiers because ww1 warfare clearly favoured defensive trench warfare until 1918, while diverting surplus troop to belgium.
 
How to remove that from a city under siege or safely destroy it though would be a problem.
IIRC wasn't a majority of it onboard ships in the harbour, and presumably the rest being in the dockside warehouses? Depending on when it's realised that it's there having the ships that are still loaded emergency evacuated could be one option, dumping the stores that had already been offloaded into the Scheldt would probably put it beyond use. As I understand things it was mainly the fact that no-one thought to look/realised it was there that let it be captured.
 
IIRC wasn't a majority of it onboard ships in the harbour, and presumably the rest being in the dockside warehouses? Depending on when it's realised that it's there having the ships that are still loaded emergency evacuated could be one option, dumping the stores that had already been offloaded into the Scheldt would probably put it beyond use. As I understand things it was mainly the fact that no-one thought to look/realised it was there that let it be captured.
Was it on ships or barges? I would have thought any ships would have been evacuated anyway rather than leave them for the Germans but can see why barges might be overlooked. Personally though if I was the O.C. I'd either have sent them into the Netherlands or more likely destroyed them anyway. Actually if I was Belgian Barge skipper I'd have run for the Netherlands with as much of my family as possible as the siege began.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
After the black sea raid, in fact, the grand vizier and the anti war faction tried to appease the Entente but the Entente decided to declare war. Instead, they should have just required the turks to reopen the strait and accepted their apology. This would not keep the Turks neutral during the whole, but might be able to delay its war entry for 1 and 2 years, which might have created difference.
 

BooNZ

Banned
The Germans already had a pilot plant operating at Oppau in 1913, ramping up production the following year to 20 tons of nitrogen per annum, but does anyone know when they started their crash expansion programme and more importantly when it started full production?

September-October 1914 was when the Germans started their industrial production expansion - first significant plants coming online in April-May 1915, with the last of the first batch of production plants being completed in Sept 1915 or thereabouts.
 

BooNZ

Banned
IIRC wasn't a majority of it onboard ships in the harbour, and presumably the rest being in the dockside warehouses? Depending on when it's realised that it's there having the ships that are still loaded emergency evacuated could be one option, dumping the stores that had already been offloaded into the Scheldt would probably put it beyond use. As I understand things it was mainly the fact that no-one thought to look/realised it was there that let it be captured.

I have always found the story of the Belgium nitrates curious - the quantity of nitrates frequently varies significantly and there is never an explanation on just how such a quantity of nitrates (even the smaller estimates) happened to be lying around a port, clogging up ships and warehouses. Even by the end of 1914 the British admiralty were still baffled why the German navy was poking around the Southern Atlantic...
 
I found a source claiming Russian war debt to British state at 1.4 billion pounds. Not sure how that compares to catsmate's figure.
furtyer debt existed to the British market.
It depends on when the figure was calculated; pre-war the exchange rate was 9.45 rubles to the pound Sterling but it dropped by ~30% quite rapidly after Russia left the gold standard and suspended convertibility in 1914.
Stg£1.45B would correspond to ~13.23 billion rubles at the pre-war rate, 18.38 billion by late 1914 and around 24 billion by early 1917 when the ruble was trading at around 45% below it's pre-war value internationally.
 
I would cut out the expenditure that didn't contribute to winning the war. I would start with the K class submarines and the Follies.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
I would cut out the expenditure that didn't contribute to winning the war. I would start with the K class submarines and the Follies.
Also, Admiral class built as faster QE with heavier armour than Hood otl rather than BCs, R class built as QE class (totally oil fuelled). I would reduce home conscription by using more Empire troops, especially indian, also split Empire soldiers into smaller and mix them with each other and with home divisions to minimize their new sense of nationalism. No bloody mad charge like flander, stick to sitting behind trenches until thousands of tanks are ready. Ottoman neutrality and Italy alliance are crucial to keep a stronger Russia
 
Also, Admiral class built as faster QE with heavier armour than Hood otl rather than BCs, R class built as QE class (totally oil fuelled).
The R class was ordered under the 1913-14 Navy Estimates, which ended on 31st March 1914, which unfortunately is before the POD.

Similarly the your Super QE would be better than the OTL Hood, but it would not be completed until after the war ended and therefore didn't contribute to winning the war. IIRC Hood cost £6 million to build and the £860,000 was spent on her 3 sisters before they were cancelled. So either the money shouldn't be spent at all or the money, labour and steel used to build more tanks.

I did consider including not building the Hood class in Post No. 91.
 
If this is helps the following is the National Debt from 1903 to 1939 followed by the cost of servicing it. Both are in millions of Pounds.

31/03/1903 - 798.3 - 27.3
31/03/1904 - 794.5 - 27.0
31/03/1905 - 796.7 - 27.0
31/03/1906 - 789.0 - 28.0
31/03/1907 - 779.2 - 28.5
31/03/1908 - 762.3 - 29.5
31/03/1909 - 754.1 - 28.0
31/03/1910 - 762.5 - 21.8
31/03/1911 - 733.1 - 24.6
31/03/1912 - 718.4 - 24.5
31/03/1913 - 711.3 - 24.5
31/03/1914 - 706.2 - 24.5
31/03/1915 - 1,162.0 - 22.7
31/03/1916 - 2,189.8 - 60.2
31/03/1917 - 4,063.6 - 127.3
31/03/1918 - 5,921.1 - 189.9
31/03/1919 - 7,481.1 - 270.0
31/03/1920 - 7,875.6 - 332.0
31/03/1921 - 7,623.1 - 349.6
31/03/1922 - 7,720.5 - 332.3
31/03/1923 - 7,812.6 - 324.0
31/03/1924 - 7,707.5 - 347.3
31/03/1925 - 7,655.9 - 357.2
31/03/1926 - 7,633.7 - 358.2
31/03/1927 - 7,652.7 - 378.6
31/03/1928 - 7,631.0 - 378.8
31/03/1929 - 7,620.9 - 369.0
31/03/1930 - 7,596.2 - 355.0
31/03/1931 - 7,582.9 - 360.0
31/03/1932 - 7,648.0 - 322.0
31/03/1933 - 7,859.7 - 308.5
31/03/1934 - 8,030.4 - 224.0
31/03/1935 - 7,902.4 - 224.0
31/03/1936 - 7,901.6 - 224.0
31/03/1937 - 7,909.9 - 224.0
31/03/1938 - 8,149.0 - 226.8
31/03/1939 - 8,301.1 - 230.0
Does this adjust for inflation or is it purely nominal?
 
I would cut out the expenditure that didn't contribute to winning the war. I would start with the K class submarines and the Follies.
That's hindsight talking at least about the K-Class. They didn't know the things would keep getting run down by RN Battleships and at least on paper the idea of a submarine able to work with the Battle fleet wasn't that bad of an Idea. (My Grandad actually served on one post war). As for the follies, had they just been used as monitors they would have been ok. Once the inherent flaw in Fishers speed = armour was recognised they should all have been completed as the carriers the navy was crying out for post Jutland.
 
That's hindsight talking at least about the K-Class. They didn't know the things would keep getting run down by RN Battleships and at least on paper the idea of a submarine able to work with the Battle fleet wasn't that bad of an Idea. (My Grandad actually served on one post war).
And? This is reminiscent of the argument I had with Just Leo on the better RAF thread. What's the point of AH if hindsight can't be used?
As for the follies, had they just been used as monitors they would have been ok. Once the inherent flaw in Fishers speed = armour was recognised they should all have been completed as the carriers the navy was crying out for post Jutland.
They were expensive monitors, but I like the thought of them being completed as aircraft carriers. I have often toyed with that idea myself.
 
The Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the Year 1939 had an article on Government Expenditure, which included a table on British Government expenditure for 1870 to 1938. I'll try to copy it here...
Here goes...
Government Expenditure as a Percentage of National Income.jpg
 
And? This is reminiscent of the argument I had with Just Leo on the better RAF thread. What's the point of AH if hindsight can't be used?
The point is they didn't know the damn things were death traps until they'd actually built some. That said once the first had had it's sea trials the rest should have been canceled. I agree they should never have made it off the drawing board, but would like to know why they are making that decision, even if it's Flag Officer Submarines looking at the plans and telling them there's no way he's having steam power on his boats.
 
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