AHC/WI: Barack Obama IS Born in Kenya


The question of Obama's eligibility began with a Democratic Party Activist named Phillip J. Berg. Berg was a coordinator for the campaign of Hilary Clinton in the 2008 Pennsylvania Primary.

Does the fact that Philip J. Berg brought a lawsuit charging George W. Bush with complicity in 9/11 (which was dismissed) not set off warning sounds in your head? Like, that he might be a conspiracy theory crackpot? Barack Obama has never been a citizen of Indonesia, he's probably the man with the most documented citizenship in the history of the United States.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Anyway, it is impossible to answer the OP's question, as

We don't know.

1. The issue has never been legal settled (despited what my GA says)
2. The issue needs to be settled by the Supreme Court in conjuction with the House of Representives.
3. The majority of scholaraly opinion is that the issue will be almost certainly be settled in favour of birth by jus solis or birth to a US citizen outside the US.

Again it will come down to what 9 really old people in long, flowing black gowns decide when they get around to it.
i'm not certain that the courts would ever touch that issue without being compelled to do so by political actions from one of the other two branches of government. Even so, the SCOTUS is compromised in the matter, two justices having been appointed by Obama. Those two justices would probably recuse themselves, or be compelled to do so.

If Obama is declared ineligible, the mess would not necessarily be legislative. Bills presented to the President DO NOT have to be signed by the President in order to become law. As long as Congress is in session, those bills become law without the President's signature 10 days after being presented. If congress is NOT in session, the bill dies, and is not subject to congressional over ride. It is known as a Pocket Veto. However, bills that have been vetoed would also become law if congress had been in session within the 10 day limit. That would be a mess, but not quite that big of a mess. Obama hasn't vetoed a lot of bills compared to other Presidents.

The real mess would be administrative. No Presidential appointee in the executive branch would be legitimate. That would include the Presidential cabinet, two SCOTUS justices, a whole slew of federal judges, and every US attorney.

The solution to that would probably be some omnibus bill that the Vice President (who would become President) would sign retroactively appointing such persons to their office.

However there would undoubtedly be a lot of constitutional challenges to the legitimacy of such a bill.

Just thinking about it gives me the headache from hell.

Incidentally, i would expect that Obama would be pardoned by his former VP for any crimes that would arise out of this. It would probably be less controversial than the Pardon of Nixon by Ford in the 70's. Who would need the grief that a trial would cause?
 
DISCLAIMER: i am a 'birther' and not a member of either of the two major political parties.

John S. McCain III was born in a military hospital in the Panama Canal Zone. SOFA (status of forces agreement) at the time makes him a natural born American Citizen.

In modern times, the real issue would have been the legitimacy of George Romney, father of present candidate Mitt Romney, and a candidate himself. Romney was born to two American Parents in Mexico.

Prior to that, some questions were raised over the eligibility of Barry Goldwater in 1964. Goldwater had been born in Arizona at a time before it was a state in the Union. However it was a US Territory.

The only US President questionable prior to Obama would be Chester A. Arthur.

The issue with Obama is that his father was at the time a British Subject of Kenya, not an American Citizen.

There is a supplemental issue as well. Obama was as a child a citizen of Indonesia, having moved there when his mother married Lolo Sotero. To this day he speaks fluent Indonesian. This causes some questions over his eligibility, but this is an aspect of the controversy that i am less prepared to speak on.

ORIGINS OF BIRTHERISM IN THE CASE OF BARACK OBAMA/BARRY SOTERO:

The McCain Campaign had nothing to do with the issue.

The question of Obama's eligibility began with a Democratic Party Activist named Phillip J. Berg. Berg was a coordinator for the campaign of Hilary Clinton in the 2008 Pennsylvania Primary.

I just warned you YESTERDAY not to drag this birther nonsense into unrelated threads. You're kicked for a week, during which time you will be unable to post. When you come back, don't post political flamebait again.
 
A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

Right, that's the clause that the birthers go on about. However, the Immigration and Naturalization act of 1987 changed that to 2 years after the 14th birthday, and states that "This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date."

None of which matters in OTL, of course. I love how people believe that in 1962 an 18-year old woman traveled to a third-world country to deliver her baby, while simultaneously having the presence of mind to place a fake birth announcement in the Honolulu paper just in case the half-black Swahili-named child decided to run for president. :rolleyes:
 
I love how people believe that in 1962 an 18-year old woman traveled to a third-world country to deliver her baby, while simultaneously having the presence of mind to place a fake birth announcement in the Honolulu paper just in case the half-black Swahili-named child decided to run for president. :rolleyes:

They all laughed at her at the time, but no one's laughing now.
 
None of which matters in OTL, of course. I love how people believe that in 1962 an 18-year old woman traveled to a third-world country to deliver her baby, while simultaneously having the presence of mind to place a fake birth announcement in the Honolulu paper just in case the half-black Swahili-named child decided to run for president. :rolleyes:
that, more than anything else, is the biggest flaw with birtherism. US complicity with 9/11 is more likely. hell, the notion that the fucking Knights Templar control the world is more likely!
 
Yeah, we have a thing called the Constitution. Unless he was born on an American military base or the grounds of the US Embassy, he would be ineligible.

Unlike you I have actually read the constitution. It says natural born citizen. I would say any child of a US citizen is a natural born citizen. For example, George Romney was born in Mexico to two US citizens. Therefore if he had ever won the Republican nomination, he could have been elected president.
 
that, more than anything else, is the biggest flaw with birtherism. US complicity with 9/11 is more likely. hell, the notion that the fucking Knights Templar control the world is more likely!

See that is my POV also. Does anyone think that if there was a decent chance to prove Obama was ineligible to become POTUS that Hillary Clinton wound't have brought it up? Obama was her only realistic challenger to the Democratic Party Presidential nomination. Then of course the GOP would have said something after it came down to Obama vs. McCain.
That pretty much leaves a conspiracy so huge that both political are involved but only the brave people who spend a lot of time listening to AM radio know the truth.
 
So wait wait wait...Burton kicked him, but he's now banned (I presume for conspiracy theories, but I was a bit confused up there).

I also found it funny how a guy lasted for two years and 550 posts before finally getting kicked/banned for birtherism conspiracy theories.
 
Right, that's the clause that the birthers go on about. However, the Immigration and Naturalization act of 1987 changed that to 2 years after the 14th birthday, and states that "This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date."
Huh. Well, as the Americans say, that's the ballgame. Alt!Obama is still eligible to run for President should he choose to do so.
 
Is there any non-ASB way to have Obama end up Prime Minister of Kenya rather than POTUS?

NO. The Kenyan Constitution spells out in no uncertain terms that you either ARE a citizen of Kenya, or you are NOT. No dual citizenship. One of the lesser details among so many that the birthers chose to handwave. Therefore, Obama would have to be a citizen of Kenya outright to be Kenya's PM. Meaning Obama's father would have to stay faithful to his mother, and she would have to be convinced to go with him to Kenya for good. Then there is the issue of Obama's half-white parentage in Kenyan politics, and I'm not going there.:(
 
Tou are 99.9% correct

I'm not so sure, though. Ann Dunham was an American citizen at the time of Obama's birth, so even if he were born outside the United States, Obama would be a citizen from birth and, thus, would not have to be naturalized. As such, he would be eligible to become president all the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

The foreign-born child of a U.S. citizen and a non-citizen does inherit citizenship at birth, but only if certain considerations are met. These considerations are defined by statute and have changed over time.

At the time of Obama's birth, the child could inherit citizenship only if the citizen parent had lived in the United States for at least five years after the age of 14. His mother, Stanley Dunham Obama, was less than 19 years old, and therefore could not have lived in the U.S. for five years after the age of 14. This is obviously a technical flaw in the law, but by its literal meaning would have denied alt-Obama citizenship at birth.

I say it is a technical flaw, because the intent of the clause was to prevent inheritance of birth citizenship through individuals who are not "Americans", in the sense of not living in the U.S. for any significant part of their lives. If there was no such rule, children of people who had spent nearly all their lives outside the U.S. for decades could claim citizenship, and even pass it on to their children, with none of them actually living in the U.S.

But the clause would apply to Mrs. Obama, or any parent under the age of 19, even if the citizen mother never left the U.S. until the day of the child's birth; or if the citizen father never left the U.S. at all.

If one ignores this absurd technicality, then Obama would still be eligible even if born in Kenya.
 
Unlike you I have actually read the constitution. It says natural born citizen. I would say any child of a US citizen is a natural born citizen.

This is not absolute. Congress by statute has imposed conditions on such inheritance of citizenship, especially when only one parent is a citizen.

The citizen parent must have lived in the U.S. for a substantial part of his life. If that was not so, then there could be "U.S. citizens" of multi-generational expatriation. I.e. US citizen Adam Doe fathers a child, Bill Doe, in Slobbovia, who inherits U.S. citizenship, and all of Bill Doe's descendants inherit it too. That doesn't happen.

For example, George Romney was born in Mexico to two US citizens. Therefore if he had ever won the Republican nomination, he could have been elected president.
Children of two U.S. citizens get a better deal, I believe. But the limitations on passing on citizenship still apply.

Incidentally, the issue of foreign birth was raised in the 1800s, regarding the Presidential eligibility of General George Meade, the victor of Gettysburg. Like other successful Union generals, Meade was touted for President, even though he had been born in Spain (his father spent some years there on business).
 
Incidentally, the issue of foreign birth was raised in the 1800s, regarding the Presidential eligibility of General George Meade, the victor of Gettysburg. Like other successful Union generals, Meade was touted for President, even though he had been born in Spain (his father spent some years there on business).

Ooo. Thats an interesting piece of info. Thanks.

Ps
A quick google suggests that there was a lot of debate then. Too bad he didnt try to run, so scotus could have ruled precisely just what the phrase means. But theres a nice quote from blackstone in a letter to the ny times that fairly definitively settles the issue in my mind, at least, given how us common law decends from british common law.

Pps. Given the topic, im not surprised there was a kick and possible banning. Im kind of surprised, but gladdened, that the thread hasnt had to be closed yet.
 
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Grimbald

Monthly Donor
If he had been foreign born, he would have known it and never run for POTUS in the first place.

Hilary Clinton would be President right now having beaten McCain as badly as did Obama.

Her economic policy would have been more POTUS dtriven than the Congress driven policies of Obama so her reelection would be virtually certain.
 
If he had been foreign born, he would have known it and never run for POTUS in the first place.

Hilary Clinton would be President right now having beaten McCain as badly as did Obama.

Her economic policy would have been more POTUS dtriven than the Congress driven policies of Obama so her reelection would be virtually certain.

Were you politically aware in the 1990s?:confused:
 
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Dialga

Banned
At worst, it would lead some people to reconsider repealing the "native born citizen as POTUS" part of the Constitution, which IMHO is archaic anyway.
 
If he had been foreign born, he would have known it and never run for POTUS in the first place.

Hilary Clinton would be President right now having beaten McCain as badly as did Obama.

Her economic policy would have been more POTUS dtriven than the Congress driven policies of Obama so her reelection would be virtually certain.

Once again speaking as someone who has actually read the constitution, the constitution says natural born citizen. Any child of a US citizen is a natural born citizen whereever they were born. That is of course my opinion. The Supreme Court, whose opinion on the constitution is the one that matters has never weighed in on this. When we were discussing this part of the constitution, my high school teacher said if George Romney go the Republican nomination, there would have been a lawsuit challenging his qualifications to be president. I assume they would have agreed with me 9-0.
 
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