AHC, WI, and H on Baseball Integration

In 1947, three African American players were integrated into the Major Leagues, and two of the teams that took them made it to the 48 and 49 World Series.

Larry Doby was the second NL player in the ML, and his new team, the Cleveland Indians, actually won the World Series in 1948; meanwhile, Jackie Robinson, the famous first, saw the Brooklyn Dodgers to the 1949 WS, where they lost to the Yankees. It was a still slow start; by 1960, UIANM, the were something like 40 black players in the Major Leagues.

Now, I should stipulate that what I just said pretty much sums up my knowledge of the subject, so whatever you can tell me helps. My questions:

Is there anyway to increase the star power of the other* NL-to-ML players?

What if the Dodgers won the WS in 1949?

Might this have lead to something like 40** new NL players coming into the ML by the end of 1950? If no, what might have (PoD after 1946)?

What would be the repercussions?

EDIT NOTES:
*other than Jackie Robinson
**changed from 20, thanks to helpful comment by BaseballFan :D
 
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Caspian

Banned
Increasing the "star power" is possible, but I don't think it'll be too much of a change. Many of the Negro League stars were past 30 (some near or past 40), and not everyone was going to be able to make the transition (massive racism, different style of play, and a lower overall quality of competition in the Negro Leagues - rather similar to the transition of Japanese major leaguers to the US, with the substitution of racism for cultural differences).

I doubt anything change if the Dodgers win the 1949 series. After all, the Indians won the 1948 series.
 
So, IIUYC, Jackie Robinson would like be an even bigger star if the Dodgers won in 1949, but that's about it -- that even if the new MVP was black, the structural problems with bringing in more NL players (age, racism, etc) are just too much. Am I right?
 
yes - there were more than 20 by 1960 (remember, each of the 16 had integrated, and most teams had 2-3, a few 4-5); I'd put it at 20, if you want to use that figure, by about 1953-5.

They wanted young stars - get a copy of "I Had A Hammer" (the Hank Aaron story) and you can see some really interesting things about baseball and how racial barriers were broken down. (There are others, that's just the one I read most recently.) Bill Bruton, for instance, lied about his age because he wondered, at age 24, if he would be signable. He came out and admitted it in the early '60s, IIRC.

Also, the dominance of the Dodgers and Giants did cause the N.L. to expand faster than the A.L., which was really slow. If you wnat to increase the speed at which black players enter the A.L., dliminate the dominance of the yankees.If the Indians and White Sox, who did integrte faster, are the teams to win more pennants in the '50s, you could probably speed it up a little.

But, the leagues were much more separate at this time, so just as the Dodgers' dominance of the N.L. wasn't diminished by their losing the World Series more often, so, too, would the Yankees' dominance not diminish the much slower integration of the A.L., even if the Yankees (or Red Sox) kept losing World Series through the '50s.

A good POD? Maybe Cleveland keeps Allie Reynolds, The Red Sox win in 49 (though it *could* be the Indians with some breaks - say, Bill Veeck isn't in financial trouble, if he buys Johnny Mize then, it's more of a sure thing - or, the Indians could give the Giants Mike Garcia or Early Wynn). Also, this lets the Indians, with a few breaks, win in '50 and beat the Phillies, and Reynolds switching side, if they do the pitching right, lets the Indians win in '51 and '52, as well, though more plausibly it'd be 3-4 out of 5, so give the Red Sox '49. You can figure out some butterflies from there; maybe the Cardinalss, for some reason, then sign Mickey Mantle?

If this happens, and the White Sox or Indians win in 1953, everyone will rush to sign the black players, even if they're not stars, because they feel they have to catch up to the Indians' dynasty.
 
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yes - there were more than 20 by 1960 (remember, each of the 16 had integrated, and most teams had 2-3, a few 4-5); I'd put it at 20, if you want to use that figure, by about 1953-5.

I thank you for the correction -- seeing as there were likely then at least 40 players, new challenge is that many by the end of 1950 (also changed the first post).

Also, the dominance of the Dodgers and Giants did cause the N.L. to expand faster than the A.L., which was really slow.

Oops -- my bad again -- I was using NL and ML to signify Negro Leagues and Major Leagues, forgot NL also, and more commonly, signifies National Leagues. :eek:

Satchel Paige joining MLB earlier may have helped the "star power" of black players.

Certainly interesting -- may only even need to be by a few months, so as to make him a regular part of the team and build up his image by the time of the World Series.

A good POD? Maybe Cleveland keeps Allie Reynolds... Also, this lets the Indians, with a few breaks, win in '50 and beat the Phillies, and Reynolds switching side, if they do the pitching right, lets the Indians win in '51 and '52, as well, though more plausibly it'd be 3-4 out of 5, so give the Red Sox '49. You can figure out some butterflies from there; maybe the Cardinals, for some reason, then sign Mickey Mantle?

If this happens, and the White Sox or Indians win in 1953, everyone will rush to sign the black players, even if they're not stars, because they feel they have to catch up to the Indians' dynasty.

Now that is very interesting -- turning Cleveland into a baseball dynasty... :rolleyes:
 
thing is, those 40 by 1960 were mostly younger ones who didn't start out in the Ne.L. (that's how most on baseball-fever.com abreviate the Negro leagues.)

What you want is a reason for clubs to make signings like the Braves in 1950 with Sam Jethroe, but also, to bring them up to the majors. Because, there were older Ne.L. players signed by teams and kept in the minors to help the younger ones along.

Perhaps keeping Reynods makes Cleveland more of a contender in '47, butnot that much more,becuase pitching isn't their problem, it's offense and team chemistry/bullpen. (Their Pythagorean won-loss record was 8 wins higher than what they did.)

Perhaps Bill Veeck, in addition to signing Larry Doby, gets Satchel Paige early int he year, but also, he signs Willard Brown, an older, Hall of Fame Negro Leaguer who flopped in St. Louis in 1947 because: 1. His teammates didn't like him; 2. It was a Southern city; and, 3. Equipment problems, as he didn't like the smaller batr they made him use, IIRC. I might be wrong on that one, though.

So, Veeck decides to sign Brown instead, and bring him up in July, witht he Indians still in it. he figures Brown will be there for a little while, but he's mostly there to help Doby. Paige helps a little, and the Tribe keeps it close. Brown stays int he league and helps in '48 before going back to teh Negro leagues.

The Yankees used the excuse that they didnt' think black players would want to play for them? True? hard to say. but, if they're in a much tighter race in '47, and the Indians win by about 7-10 games in '48, after that season they might offer Artie Wilson and 1-2 others the money they wanted. This, in turn, causes them to maybe even come out on top in close race in '49.

So, by 1950, you might see a few more teams - I don't know if you can get 40 by the end of 1950, but you can probably have a couple more teams integrate, and perhaps 20-25 by 1950.

If you're looking for another good clutch player, too, Ray Dandridge was a hall of Fame Negro league 3rd baseman who was in Minneapolis for a while when Willie mays was there in '51, and played for the Gians' AAA club from '49-'53. Someone else could sign him, too.

(Okay, with that, I am giong to be pretty busy for a while, but I've retired 722 times already. :) Maybe this will make more people look at my sig and consider buying, though. :)
 
Perhaps Bill Veeck, in addition to signing Larry Doby, gets Satchel Paige early in the year, but also, he signs Willard Brown, an older, Hall of Fame Negro Leaguer who flopped in St. Louis in 1947 because: 1. His teammates didn't like him; 2. It was a Southern city; and, 3. Equipment problems, as he didn't like the smaller bat they made him use, IIRC...

So, Veeck decides to sign Brown instead, and bring him up in July, with the Indians still in it. He figures Brown will be there for a little while, but he's mostly there to help Doby. Paige helps a little, and the Tribe keeps it close. Brown stays in the league and helps in '48 before going back to teh Negro leagues.

Liking it...

[If the Yankees] in a much tighter race in '47, and the Indians win by about 7-10 games in '48, after that season they might offer Artie Wilson and 1-2 others the money they wanted. This, in turn, causes them to maybe even come out on top in close race in '49.

Is it problematic that I'd rather see them lose to the Dodgers first? Part of it is I'd still like Jackie Robinson to play a big role in this...

So, by 1950, you might see a few more teams - I don't know if you can get 40 by the end of 1950, but you can probably have a couple more teams integrate, and perhaps 20-25 by 1950.

OK, I can live with that, assuming they can plausibly get it up to 35-40 by the 1952 WS.

(Okay, with that, I am giong to be pretty busy for a while, but I've retired 722 times already. :) Maybe this will make more people look at my sig and consider buying, though. :)

Hey, I'm grateful for what you can give me :D
 

Caspian

Banned
If baseball integrates faster, the AL is likely to catch up to the NL in terms of overall league strength - I'd expect this to reduce the Yankees' dominance of the 1950's just a little (maybe they lose the 1952 pennant to the Indians, who have kept Satchel Paige and maybe added a catcher who can hit). This is assuming a fairly even spread of integration (which is probably a problematic assumption). The Red Sox and other lagging teams are probably forced to integrate sooner.

Willard Brown getting a second chance is interesting. Good power, decent speed, decent defense in center field, lots of strikeouts, a few walks, relatively low average. He was already 32, so I don't expect a long career, but Luke Easter could be an appropriate comparison as a hitter.
 
Though this is certainly quite interesting, I probably should have added "repercussions beyond baseball" -- sorry :eek::rolleyes:

This is assuming a fairly even spread of integration (which is probably a problematic assumption).

I'd also rather not make it myself -- this TL may be a lot more interesting if a number of major teams don't integrate until after 1960, say.
 
If baseball integrates faster, the AL is likely to catch up to the NL in terms of overall league strength - I'd expect this to reduce the Yankees' dominance of the 1950's just a little (maybe they lose the 1952 pennant to the Indians, who have kept Satchel Paige and maybe added a catcher who can hit). The Red Sox and other lagging teams are probably forced to integrate sooner.

The Red Sox? Uh, no. It took Ford Frick issuing a direct order to Tom Yawkey to integrate the Red Sox before the beginning of the 1960's or face the sale of his club. So, in August of 1959 Yawkey brought up Pumpsie Green, not a name that comes to mind when you're talking about Cooperstown. This was a team that passed on Jackie Robinson, Monte Irvin, and Willie Mays!

I see however that everyone on this thread is knowledgable enough of baseball history to know that integration in baseball was never going to happen as long as baseball commisioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis was still alive (d. Oct. 1944).
 
The Red Sox? Uh, no. It took Ford Frick issuing a direct order to Tom Yawkey to integrate the Red Sox before the beginning of the 1960's or face the sale of his club. So, in August of 1959 Yawkey brought up Pumpsie Green, not a name that comes to mind when you're talking about Cooperstown. This was a team that passed on Jackie Robinson, Monte Irvin, and Willie Mays!

The Cleveland Indians and the Red Sox battled for the pennant in their infamous 1948 Season -- supposing Red Sox still hold out on integration TTL as well, by 1952 there are something like 40 black players in the Majors, many of them with the Indians.

If the Sox faced them off again around this time, how big would it be? What kind of coverage, and how would that affect racial relations?
 
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