AHC/WI: An independent Occitania?

CaliGuy

Banned
What is the latest realistic scenario which results in the creation of an independent Occitania?

Also, what would the consequences of this be for France, for Europe, and for the other parts of the world?
 
If you mean the entire Occitan-speaking region, it has never been a single political entity. (Keep in mind that there is/was a dialect continuum from Iberia through southern France to Italy and the distinction between Occitan and neighboring languages can be a bit blurry in some places.)

Now if you mean the County of Toulouse, that could become independent if things go different in a few different scenarios. The Albigensian Crusade going differently is the most obvious one.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
If you mean the entire Occitan-speaking region, it has never been a single political entity. (Keep in mind that there is/was a dialect continuum from Iberia through southern France to Italy and the distinction between Occitan and neighboring languages can be a bit blurry in some places.)

Weren't some Central Asian countries likewise never been unified political entities before the 20th century, though?

Indeed, can't there be a new time for a lot of things?

Now if you mean the County of Toulouse, that could become independent if things go different in a few different scenarios. The Albigensian Crusade going differently is the most obvious one.

Wouldn't France simply try again in the future until it succeeds in capturing Toulouse, though?
 
I see a long term chain of opportunities and cultural forces that would give you a chance to figure out a good answer to your question.

Take a look at the House of Savoy, starting around 1200 AD.

Take a look at the needs and wants of Occitan Culture, Population, Resources, and Identity.

I think there would be several opportunities over the course of 1200 to 1900 for the needs of the Occitans for protection to coincide with the needs of the Dukes of Savoy to have many people to support their political activity.

There would be several obvious moments where the key PODs take place.

Occitans going into military service with Savoy well before the French Revolution.

Occitans and Savoy taking a unified or congruent stand on Napoleons reorganization of French/Savoy/Occitan territory.

Occitan embrace of service with Savoy in the Crimean War (if not butterflied away).

The thorough respect of the British for Savoy and the Occitan at a crucial moment, establishing a useful working relationship.

It's the best I've got. It looks like a really hard territory to unify. Good luck!
 
Maybe if Eleanor of Acquitaine had married the Count of Toulouse (or his heir - I forget) instead of Henry II. That might have created a political unit strong enough to last.
 
Maybe if Eleanor of Acquitaine had married the Count of Toulouse (or his heir - I forget) instead of Henry II. That might have created a political unit strong enough to last.

Either her father or grandfather had taken over Toulouse but then gave it back because he was low on funds and wanted to go Crusade in the Holy Land. Have him decide the Holy Land isn't worth giving up Toulouse.
 
Yeah ... an Duchy of Aquitaine that gets and keeps Toulouse is excellently placed to become de-facto independent, and then later on, maybe doing the papal schism, trading that for a crown for supporting one over the other.

Doing this period Iberia is still not anywhere near unified enough to stop them, and depending on exact timing and some lucky marriages it should certianly be possible for them to draw Aragon into their sphere, splitting their Iberian processions between a Occitanian north and a Castilian/Majorcian(?) south
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Yeah ... an Duchy of Aquitaine that gets and keeps Toulouse is excellently placed to become de-facto independent, and then later on, maybe doing the papal schism, trading that for a crown for supporting one over the other.

Doing this period Iberia is still not anywhere near unified enough to stop them, and depending on exact timing and some lucky marriages it should certianly be possible for them to draw Aragon into their sphere, splitting their Iberian processions between a Occitanian north and a Castilian/Majorcian(?) south
Interesting scenario. :)

Also, I've got a question--due to its mountainous terrain, Occitania would have a defensive advantage over any invaders, correct?
 
If Aquitaine gets Toulouse it means that parts of Provence and the claim to Provence would fall to Aquitaine as well.
 
One point. How does the Albigensian Crusade go on this TL? Would a Duke of Aquitaine be able to fend off outside intervention - or suppress the Cathars without needing it?
 
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