AHC/WI: A More Widespread Protestant Reformation?

CaliGuy

Banned
Would it have been plausible for the Protestant Reformation to be more widespread and thus for Protestantism to spread more in comparison to our TL?

If so, what would the consequences of this have been?

Also, which additional countries would have been the most likely to become Protestant-majority in the event of a more widespread Protestant Reformation?

Any thoughts on all of this?
 
What is easiest is to prevent xounter-reformation, e.g. through a Habsburg-screw. Parts of Austria, Bohemia, Moravia and Hungary would be Protestant then.

France is another possibility, also Ireland. Poland-Lithuania perhaps partly.
 
What is easiest is to prevent xounter-reformation, e.g. through a Habsburg-screw. Parts of Austria, Bohemia, Moravia and Hungary would be Protestant then.

France is another possibility, also Ireland. Poland-Lithuania perhaps partly.

So then its just Italy/Spain? Wow. Basically just 'Mediterranean Christianity' by then.
 
So then its just Italy/Spain? Wow. Basically just 'Mediterranean Christianity' by then.
Rather 'Latin'-there are also Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Before rise of evangelicans Catholics were more effective in proselyting Natives-Catholicism assimilate various pre-Christian traditions, could adapt to local cultures, when Protestantism with its rejection of tradition as 'pagan thing' is less appealing to 'Pagans'. Christianised Natives in Spanish America had local saints, or native looking Virgin Mary, wearing Aztec clothes and speaking Nahuatl.
 
Rather 'Latin'-there are also Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Before rise of evangelicans Catholics were more effective in proselyting Natives-Catholicism assimilate various pre-Christian traditions, could adapt to local cultures, when Protestantism with its rejection of tradition as 'pagan thing' is less appealing to 'Pagans'. Christianised Natives in Spanish America had local saints, or native looking Virgin Mary, wearing Aztec clothes and speaking Nahuatl.

But that's something that happened quite early in Catholic Christianity. The Roma, for instance, have Saint Sara-e-Kali, a saint who's submerged in water on the anniversary of her arrival in France, a ritual quite similar to rituals used in worship of Kali in India, where the Roma are believed to come from. So, you had this practice very early on in Catholicism.
 
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The Reformation taking off as much as it did was tough enough. Great Britain could have easily stayed Catholic, same with Scandinavia. I will leave it to others to figure out how one can make it happen, so I will address the other questions in the OP.

If so, what would the consequences of this have been?

I am personally a believer that the Reformation did have significant long term intellectual effects of Europe. The Papal Schisms in the 1400s rocked Catholic Europe's view of certainty in the Church, the safeguard of the truth. The Protestant Reformation said this safeguard was in the Bible. But, as the Magisterial Reformation wore off, the Radical Reformation went on. You Had George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards bypassing the local church (which used to be your only professional interpreters of the Bible) and brought the "truth" directly to the people. Meanwhile, all of this coincides with the Enlightenment. People start getting it into their heads that truth is something they explore into themselves. Obviously, this lends itself to the popular acceptance of empiricism, even if the intellectual groundwork was already being laid down for the previous two centuries among the elites.

So, what I foresee is ultimately less religiosity (might butterfly away US fundamentalism) and wider liberal attitudes globally. This may mean that France might have had an even more advanced economy and modernized society before the Revolution, or the Revolution occurs sooner. It also means that Marxism may rear its ugly head sooner.

I am not trying to argue that religion is the antithesis of progress, but the Protestant way of thinking (that a few upstarts can overturn the consensus of all Christians for the last 1500 years and bypass the institution of the Church which was recognized as an institutional continuation of the same CHurch started by the Apostles) obviously leads to people sticking their neck out more and trying crazier, newer ideas. It is no coincidence in the backwaters of Europe science and the industrial revolution took off the most.

Also, which additional countries would have been the most likely to become Protestant-majority in the event of a more widespread Protestant Reformation?

Maybe you can get France. If you can get Poland and the Baltic states that would be cool too.
 
Croatia could easily become a Protestant if no danger from Turks ( and need for assistance against them from Habsburgs and Pope ).
 
What if, instead, there is a complete victory for the protestants and the Reformation actually reforms the Church, leading to a Reformed Catholic Church which includes some Lutheran theses, but keeps the Papal Institution? Theologically I think it is within the realm of possible, politically not so much.
 
What is easiest is to prevent xounter-reformation, e.g. through a Habsburg-screw. Parts of Austria, Bohemia, Moravia and Hungary would be Protestant then.

France is another possibility, also Ireland. Poland-Lithuania perhaps partly.

Just want to point out that Hungary was only majority catholic but a big part of the populace was reformed or protestant - not to mention the antitrinitarians in Transylvania. The rights of the protestants were secured in two separate peaces.
 
Converting all of France to Protestantism is challenging (though, if the Concordat of Bologna does not happen, could be possible). But I could also envision a timeline in which the Valois dynasty has surviving sons, and so Henri de Navarre and the Huguenots abandon the goal of conquering Paris and focus instead on forming a breakaway Protestant kingdom in the south.
 

Catholic France was the center of European science and culture until the 19th century (it was also the main center of Enlightenment philosophers), Catholic Belgium as the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution in the continent and Catholic Rhineland was center of Prussian economy, meanwhile Scandinavia was as poor as Iberia during the 19th century. So nope, Protestantism isn't a prerequisite for success, other factors matters a lot more (particularly the political rather than religious consequences of the Reformation).

On-topic: as other noted you need the change the Habsburgs: maybe not inheriting Spain would help a lot, but the whole concept of HRE comes from ties with the Roman Church (even if this concept has decayed for centuries by the 1500s), so you also need a heavy fallout between the head of the House of Habsburg and the Catholic Church that leads to complete Imperial disillusionment with the Pope, in the worst case scenario you get TTL Charles V favorable to Luther, there is a problem: many princes converted to escape growing Imperial power (as Luther said, the Princes were the safeguard of German liberties against imperial tyranny), so you get Austria... but lost a lot more! :biggrin:

Another alternative is screwing the Habsburgs: Some say that Ferdinand I divided the Hereditary lands in three in order to have more local management of the counter-reformation, I not well-researched enough to know if it was truly successful, but the three archdukes surely had problems, so have Ferdinand and Anne have less kids (they had fucking 11) or a single kid inherits the whole mess, a less capable one, and we may have the Austrian protestants having a better ground.
 
What if, instead, there is a complete victory for the protestants and the Reformation actually reforms the Church, leading to a Reformed Catholic Church which includes some Lutheran theses, but keeps the Papal Institution? Theologically I think it is within the realm of possible, politically not so much.

Uh, what? Theologically, it's not in the realm of the possible. Catholic bishops would renounce the "reforms" and it would just lead to a huge schism. You aren't going to undo over one thousand years of theology just by hand wave. There will always be a strong Catholic resistance to Protestantism. A plausible scenario that includes a more successful Protestant movement just means more wars than even IOTL.
 
Uh, what? Theologically, it's not in the realm of the possible. Catholic bishops would renounce the "reforms" and it would just lead to a huge schism. You aren't going to undo over one thousand years of theology just by hand wave. There will always be a strong Catholic resistance to Protestantism. A plausible scenario that includes a more successful Protestant movement just means more wars than even IOTL.
It would not be handwave: there were a lot of reform movements trying to act from within the Church, including by people like Erasmus.

The biggest hurdles are the doctrines of transubstanciation and predestination, but other aspects could be accepted by the Catholics: some where accepted at the Vatican II (granted, almost 500 hundred years later, but...).

It would not be otl's Lutheranism nor Calvinism, but what if (maybe because of reduced temporal papal power) some of the reformers' worries and questions are acceptes by the mainstream Church? This would at the same time ensure maximum extent to "a" reformed Church and minimum extent to "the" reformed Church of otl, which would likely be reduced to a marginal heretical movement.
 
It would not be handwave: there were a lot of reform movements trying to act from within the Church, including by people like Erasmus.

Erasmus was an orthodox Catholic. There's no such actual category as "reform movements" in real life. Different people had different ideas on how to make reforms, but where it comes down to points of doctrine, we would have to look at the specific doctrinal formulae one by one.

The biggest hurdles are the doctrines of transubstanciation and predestination, but other aspects could be accepted by the Catholics: some where accepted at the Vatican II (granted, almost 500 hundred years later, but...).

No offense, but it doesn't seem like you have actually read about this very much. For example, there is the issue of not only transubstantiation, but the remaining six sacraments. None of those are going to go away. Luther rejected five of the seven. Besides that, there's purgatory, vicarious satisfaction, canon law, Petrine supremacy, and the various issues of Christian anthropology which rely on a different underlying metaphysics altogether. Luther, for example, had never read the works of St Thomas Aquinas, whose theology AND philosophy were and still are hugely influential (perhaps more than any other) throughout the Church. Another issue is justification, the sources of ecclesiastical authority, etc. These are almost all defended by Catholic theologians with staunch loyalty. Look at St Thomas More as an example of the sort of loyalty for doctrinal principle that would be very common in the face of a more politically successful Protestantism.

What also seems to be hand waved away, incorrectly, is the Catholic belief on predestination. The consensus view among approved Catholic theologians (that is to say, theologians who are given the license to speak and publish as theologians recognized by the Church, which was especially important during this time period of the early sixteenth century), to this very day, is that there IS predestination, as is taught by Thomas following St Augustine. Of course, this idea of predestination is quite different from Protestant ideas about it, but it's there.

Disciplinary reforms are much easier, of course, but the Catholic theological system and legal corpus as such are pretty complete. One cannot simply posit that one thing would just go away without it affecting the rest of the entire system. It's frankly not even true to say that Vatican II even changed anything below a superficial level.

I would encourage looking into the historical facts on this subject.

It would not be otl's Lutheranism nor Calvinism, but what if (maybe because of reduced temporal papal power) some of the reformers' worries and questions are acceptes by the mainstream Church? This would at the same time ensure maximum extent to "a" reformed Church and minimum extent to "the" reformed Church of otl, which would likely be reduced to a marginal heretical movement.

Sounds like a bloodbath, since there would be widespread schisms and turmoil.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What is easiest is to prevent xounter-reformation, e.g. through a Habsburg-screw. Parts of Austria, Bohemia, Moravia and Hungary would be Protestant then.

France is another possibility, also Ireland. Poland-Lithuania perhaps partly.
How exactly do you prevent the Counter-Reformation, though?
 
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