AHC/WI: A European "Shogunate"

So I've recently got into Japanese history and noticed that it is unique in regards to the Shogunate system. Many nations have had civil wars and changed monarchs and even dynasties but only one that I can think of had one dynasty act as hereditary regents (for that what the Shoguns pretty much were) for another dynasty, and that was the early Charlemagne dynasty on behalf of the Merovingians, though even they eventually deposed the rightful rulers. So how could we see a system similar to that of the Shogunate come about in Europe? Would it even be possible?
 
So I've recently got into Japanese history and noticed that it is unique in regards to the Shogunate system. Many nations have had civil wars and changed monarchs and even dynasties but only one that I can think of had one dynasty act as hereditary regents (for that what the Shoguns pretty much were) for another dynasty, and that was the early Charlemagne dynasty on behalf of the Merovingians, though even they eventually deposed the rightful rulers. So how could we see a system similar to that of the Shogunate come about in Europe? Would it even be possible?

While not Europe, the Peshwas of the Maratha Empire functioned in the same way after the Emperor's power waned.
 
Well, maybe if the Carolingians hadn't deposed the Merovingians... I think I read somewhere that the Carolingian who did that asked the Pope or a bishop something like "is it legitimate that he who holds real power should be King?" and got an answer he took for an approval. If this was true, let's say he doesn't get a religios approval, and so decides to keep ruling de facto while keeping the Merovingians as a mere decorative figure...
 
This was arguably what a number of German born generals, most notably Odoacer, tried to do during the dying days of the Western Roman Empire, as only a Roman could be Emperor, the best a foederati could hope for was to become supreme military commander.

Things didnt really work out like that because well, this was the Western Roman Empire and things were going to hell both outside and inside.
 
Italy has the highest chance of becoming a European Shogunate, just replace the Emperor with the Pope.
 
This thread made me interested in making a timeline of an Italian "Shogunate". I was thinking that Lodovico Sforza, or somebody else with good leadership, could have become the de facto leader of Italy.
 
This thread made me interested in making a timeline of an Italian "Shogunate". I was thinking that Lodovico Sforza, or somebody else with good leadership, could have become the de facto leader of Italy.

Not a bad idea. But yeah I think Italy would be the most likely place for a Shogunate style rule to spring up in Europe. I would say the Visconti Duke of Milan or Angevin Kings of Naples would be the most likely candidates for a Shogun of Italy.
 
A dynasty of Stewards...

Now your making me think of Lord of the Rings and the Stewards of Gondor.:D
But come to think of it I think Nepal had a dynasty of hereditary Prime Ministers. So something like that could develop, like the Fujiwara clan in Japan, who dominated the Regency positions of Sesshō and Kampaku.
 
Not a bad idea. But yeah I think Italy would be the most likely place for a Shogunate style rule to spring up in Europe. I would say the Visconti Duke of Milan or Angevin Kings of Naples would be the most likely candidates for a Shogun of Italy.
The problem here is, to become the "shogun" (which could either be called as Duce, Direttore, or Arciduca, depending on whichever fits), one must outsmart the other one for the position, which might cause for a civil war. Alternatively, they can inter-marry their children.
 
The Lord Protector of England and the Stadtholder of the Netherlands comes to mind, except for how they didn't rule over a symbolic monarch like the Japanese Emperor.
 
Both Scotland and England had hereditary stewards.
In the former they married into the Royal Family and became Kings (the House of Stewart/Stuart)
In the latter the stewardship first became associated with the Earldom of Leicester, died out once or twice, became inherited by the King, and is only functional at the odd royal ceremony.
So avoid these, ramp up long regencies for youth and senility without causing another King to take over, and eventually you might just get an English or Scottish Shogun
 
Well, maybe if the Carolingians hadn't deposed the Merovingians... I think I read somewhere that the Carolingian who did that asked the Pope or a bishop something like "is it legitimate that he who holds real power should be King?" and got an answer he took for an approval. If this was true, let's say he doesn't get a religios approval, and so decides to keep ruling de facto while keeping the Merovingians as a mere decorative figure...
For the last century of Merowingian "rule" the Mayors of the Palace were essentially the Shoguns of the Franks. It ended only because Pepin found a way around the legitimation of the Merovingians, who had an almost religious standing (similiar to japanese emperors). Avoid the acceptance of the new legitimation by pope and Frankish nobles or avoid the desire/need of the Carolingians for official recognition, and you can have European shoguns for a much longer time.
 
The best way to get this in my eyes is via the post Charlie the Cool Holy Roman Empire. After all, even in our Time Line the HRE was seen as the secular arm of the Papacy, and although neither institution was actually hereditary, that is kind of similar to the relationship between the Emperor and the Shogun.

I would do this by having the Hohenstaufen dynasty successfully make the title of Holy Roman Emperor hereditary, maybe with a capital at Rome and a South-Italian Power Base, but do so by making the concession that the title King of the Romans remains elective, and is a bit of a mix between a Prime Minister, Northern Region, and Co-Emperor with nebulously defined authority. Then, gradually, as the Princes grow more attached to the Ruler they actually have power over, the King of the Romans is able to gradually supplant the Emperor as the real authority in the realm.

It's not exactly like the Emperor-Shogun dynamic, but it's pretty close.
 
The best way to get this in my eyes is via the post Charlie the Cool Holy Roman Empire. After all, even in our Time Line the HRE was seen as the secular arm of the Papacy, and although neither institution was actually hereditary, that is kind of similar to the relationship between the Emperor and the Shogun.

I would do this by having the Hohenstaufen dynasty successfully make the title of Holy Roman Emperor hereditary, maybe with a capital at Rome and a South-Italian Power Base, but do so by making the concession that the title King of the Romans remains elective, and is a bit of a mix between a Prime Minister, Northern Region, and Co-Emperor with nebulously defined authority. Then, gradually, as the Princes grow more attached to the Ruler they actually have power over, the King of the Romans is able to gradually supplant the Emperor as the real authority in the realm.

It's not exactly like the Emperor-Shogun dynamic, but it's pretty close.
The Problem is that the HRE has de-jure powers, and is constantly checked by the Pope, making their relationship of equal footing.
 
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