AHC: White Russian 'Taiwan'

Incognito

Banned
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have the anti-communist White faction of the Russian Civil War gain control of some part of the former Russian Empire and set up a rival government there that opposes the Bolseviks.

Myself, I think a Tsarist Alaska would be cool :cool: (though that would need a pre-1900 POD).
 
mcdo

mcdo

Your best bet, I think, is to have the Empire of Japan allow one of the White factions they supported to set up shop in Karafuto or the Kurils or something after 1922. I could see some of the stronger anti-communists supporting such a move, although it would really just be a propoganda move. I doubt they would have any real soverignty, though.

Anyway, the parallels with Taiwan would actually be fairly strong--a territory that was one ruled by Russia (China), but was far away and remote and not a core territory or province, a land with a lengthy experience of Japanese rule, a Pacific island, etc.
 

aktarian

Unlikely. Geography speaks agaisnt it since there is no island which can be turned into fortress and negate enemies numerical superiority that way.

Maybe Ukraine, Belarus and Balts, if RCW allows it.
 

gloster meteor mk3

Banned
Best bet for them would be in exile if the Bolsheviks do not murder them. It would be the only option really other than escaping with as much of the Romanov fortune to Germany or Britain.
 

zeppelinair

Incognito said:
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have the anti-communist White faction of the Russian Civil War gain control of some part of the former Russian Empire and set up a rival government there that opposes the Bolsheviks.

Myself, I think a Tsarist Alaska would be cool :cool: (though that would need a pre-1900 POD).
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Japan needs to have more support from its government to continue military operations it was having in Siberia (it was simply forced back to Japan IOTL). Japan was all for a Russian Empire that could work as a buffer between itself and the Communists. If the Russian Empire was supported by the Japanese more than IOTL (the supposed Russian tsarist territory was east of the Baikals), we would see a Russian "Taiwan", so to speak.
However, it may only work if the Russian communists lacked so much manpower that it would not have been able to continue operations. Mainland China didn't attack Taiwan only because it had such a small navy; it will not attack Taiwan now since the "Republic of China" is too small to be a threat to mainland China. Same goes for Russia- obviously Communist Russia will grow in power, and if Tsarist Russia still has some power, there will be an ongoing civil war.
 

d32123

Banned
Have more permanent Russian settlement of Hawaii (though this would need a 19th century PoD).
 

Incognito

Banned
Any chance the Whites could hold onto Crimea (given more Entant support?) long enough to work out some peace treaty with the Bolseviks, then fortify the peninsula enough to make the invasion too costly?
 

DoomBunny

West Estonian Archipelago? Aland Islands?

Crimea might work, but you'd need naval forces, good amounts of supplies and a near constant wartime troop presence to hold it. It's vulnerable to an offensive at any time.
 
Vingilótë

Vingilótë

Enigmajones said:
Japanese supported Green Ukraine. The area is rich in minerals and valuable to the Japanese.
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The really huge issue is what will prevent the USSR from taking it back. Sakhalin is a possibility, if Japan wants to 'half-way' absorb North Sakhalin. The USSR, when it gets its house together, will very likely attack Primorye. The region is simply too valuable to leave alone, and unlike Sakhalin, no Japanese force exists which can indefinitely protect it..
 

Blackfox5

Taiwan only held out because the US decided to give it massive aid and send the Seventh Fleet in the straits to prevent a PRC invasion.

Who is going to perform the same service for the White Russians? Otherwise the Soviets will invade and attack it at some point.

Furthermore, whatever redoubt the White Russians have needs to be 1) developed enough to support an economy and government, 2) very defensible, and 3) hard for the Soviets to reach or attack for some reason.

I can't think of any place which has all three criteria.

Sakhalin seems the best bet, assuming the Japanese decide to make it their own protectorate. It has many disadvantages though.
 
Vingilótë

Vingilótë

Blackfox5 said:
Taiwan only held out because the US decided to give it massive aid and send the Seventh Fleet in the straits to prevent a PRC invasion.

Who is going to perform the same service for the White Russians? Otherwise the Soviets will invade and attack it at some point.

Furthermore, whatever redoubt the White Russians have needs to be 1) developed enough to support an economy and government, 2) very defensible, and 3) hard for the Soviets to reach or attack for some reason.

I can't think of any place which has all three criteria.

Sakhalin seems the best bet, assuming the Japanese decide to make it their own protectorate. It has many disadvantages though.
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It is worth mentioning, for example, that by 1926, despite the fact that Japan really could have indefinitely defended North Sakhalin (due to the IJN's naval strength, and the USSR's lack thereof), Japan eventually ceded North Sakhalin to the USSR. ITTL, nothing else is stopping Japan from throwing White Sakhalin to the wolves in such a manner.
 

katchen

Banned
Actually, given American and British naval support (gunboats and fighter planes and in the case of Western Siberia, some of the first airboats, which were built in the mid 1920s (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airboat supplied with gasoline from wells sunk in the area http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/2201/G/ or even oil seeps http://www.oilru.com/or/42/877/ up the Ob, Yensei and Lena Rivers), it's northern and central Siberia that the Whites could have held indefinitely with a capital at Yakutsk or even Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky. In the 1920s there are no roads or railroads into northern or central Siberia, so whoever controls the river systems controls the best logistics into and out of Siberia. Even in the winter, the Red Army would find it extremely difficult moving in the face of White-American or British-Canadian (and if it were British it would be cold-acclimated Canadians who would be doing the fighting in support of the Whites) . Eventually a stalemate would likely be accepted by both sides, probably involving Red Russia staying on the European side of the Urals and allowing a White Russia to rule Siberia with an independent Turkestan Emirate or Republic in Central Asia dominated either from British India (or less likely) Nationalist China.
 
Beedok

Beedok

New Siberian islands get a few white rebels moving in, and the Soviets don't notice.

Also, asking Canada to defend the whites is a bad idea. Our forces were prone to mutiny after the exhaustion of WWI.
 

katchen

Banned
Oh. Didn't realize how close to Red Canada was at that time. I suppose asking Canadians to support the Whites COULD have turned Canada red, couldn't it?
 
Beedok

Beedok

katchen said:
Oh. Didn't realize how close to Red Canada was at that time. I suppose asking Canadians to support the Whites COULD have turned Canada red, couldn't it?
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Probably wouldn't see us turn communist, but potential isolationism, and we did have some fairly strong socialist tendencies. So not Soviet Canuckistan, but possibly quitting the commonwealth.
 
Vingilótë

Vingilótë

HeavyWeaponsGuy said:
Or at least until the Bolsheviks offer the Ukrainians autonomy like OTL or move in a force large enough to retake the industrial heart of the former Russian Empire, or both.
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Green Ukraine was the industrial heart of the former Russian Empire? Are you sure you haven't confused it with Black Sea Ukraine?
 
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