AHC What is needed for a true amerinidan americas to survive to this day?

If by true Amerindian you mean the actual Amerindian cultures as we know them surviving to this day, it's not quite as hard as some people believe. It wasn't disease or simply being conquered that got rid of most aspects of their culture, it was the genocide the conquerors started upon the natives that really destroyed them. If for whatever reason the colonizing powers of OTL aren't as dead set on destroying everything it's easily possible.
 

Seraphiel

Banned
If by true Amerindian you mean the actual Amerindian cultures as we know them surviving to this day, it's not quite as hard as some people believe. It wasn't disease or simply being conquered that got rid of most aspects of their culture, it was the genocide the conquerors started upon the natives that really destroyed them. If for whatever reason the colonizing powers of OTL aren't as dead set on destroying everything it's easily possible.

So you would just have to make the OTL colonizers more freindly to the natives and possibly start helping them then you would have amerindian cultures and large populations surviving to this day, maybe even a native nation-state or two.
 
So you would just have to make the OTL colonizers more freindly to the natives and possibly start helping them then you would have amerindian cultures and large populations surviving to this day, maybe even a native nation-state or two.
The problem is in a number of places that genocide was something the actual people themselves did and the governments couldn't stop it, or it they'd tried they suffered politically. How do you change the drive for lebensraum?
 
The problem is in a number of places that genocide was something the actual people themselves did and the governments couldn't stop it, or it they'd tried they suffered politically. How do you change the drive for lebensraum?
Yeah, the actual Spanish authorities (well, the authorities in Spain anyways) were appalled by what was happening but there wasn't much they could actually do. Perhaps knocking off Cortez would do a lot to discourage more conquistadores if they heard about the army of a thousand men under his command who were completely slaughtered. Other than that it gets a little hard to come up with more ways to have more gentle relations. But there are precedents. The Jesuits were quite friendly and popular most places they went. Especially among the Guarani.
 
How do you change the drive for lebensraum?

In the United States, Indians in the interior, though accustomed to whites, lacked the population density to reisist the settlers.

Maybe...

Amerindians on the northern plains and the South West have sustainable agriculture and a far larger populations. By the time the second wave of anglo settlers arrives in the south west and northern plains, the shock and awe factors are non existant. Amer indians have the numbers and the weapons to resist large scale settlement.

The drive for lebensraum still exists, but in both areas, Indian magority states are formed. Though most amerindians eventually accept christianity and use English as a daily language, native culture and native languages are far stronger than actual time line (like Oaxaca, Chiapas states in Mexico).
 
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Seraphiel

Banned
So you need to make the native americans to start early agriculture everywherer wand maybe you get a Lakota stat in what is N Dakota
 
Amerindians on the northern plains and the South West have sustainable agriculture and a far larger populations. By the time the second wave of anglo settlers arrives in the south west and northern plains, the shock and awe factors are non existant. Amer indians have the numbers and the weapons to resist large scale settlement.
What's "sustainable"? Anyhow, agriculture was present on the plains for centuries but after they were introduced to the horse they became far closer to the steppe-cultures of the old world within a century. So how do you get the proper draft animals to plow the soil without abandoning them for a more nomadic lifestyle?

I have certain ideas for Indians in the S and SE for my own TL that I'd not share just now, but I'm not sure how it would work on the plains.
 
[rant]Ah yes, 'true Amerindians surviving to this day'. Because of course, all the true Amerindians were either killed off or didn't have the cultural fortitude to resist imperialism, and the millions of Amerindians alive today are not 'true' Natives for who knows what reason.

This is an attitude that is widespread on these boards. Hell, I've probably spouted a line to that effect once or twice. But it's an attitude that we history nerds really need to change: Amerindians are still around, their cultures are still around, and to imply that Native Americans did not survive the genocides and diseases of the Europeans is quite frankly insulting. As a comparison, imagine going around saying "yes, the Jews were all killed during the Holocaust." Obviously, the millions of Jews around today would have a problem with that. [/rant]

I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, antiquus, but this is a rant I think is worth ranting. As an apology, I'll actually offer a helpful suggestion:

More balkanized colonization effort, with a greater variety of European cultures controlling territory, could provide many opportunities for multiple Native cultures to thrive much more than they did in OTL, especially as the weaker empires would need as many allies as they can get. For example, a coastal New Amsterdam colony might reach an agreement with the Iroquois, creating a mutual defense treaty against the French and British. The Cherokee would make a good buffer state between French Louisiana and the state of Georgia. And if multiple European empires spent their energy fighting each-other for control of the Western frontier, the Plains Indians could play these powers off against each-other and come out of it pretty well, particularly those willing to adopt a lifestyle which could compromise with their traditions and the culture of their Western allies-basically, if they take up ranching and give up raiding (unless the raiding was done against an enemy of said Western allies, of course).
 
I'm going to state the blatantly obvious answer... The Americas are simply never discovered.

I'd be interested to see how the cultures of the Americas would continue to evolve without outside interference.
 
I'd say you could probably keep Western South America and the Greater Guarani areas completely native. Cortez fails, whenever some fool decides to attempt to attack the Inca(this invasion DOESN'T occur immediately after a Civil War, during negotiations where the Sapa Inca's army was essentially unarmed, and does NOT result in the Sapa Inca being captured. Divine intervention much?) and are repelled, the Inca begin to adapt. Believe it or not, the Chimu culture had a LONG tradition of metal working, and the Nazca had a long tradition of textiles. The Inca basically inherited these traits upon annexing these territories into the empire. It wouldn't be farfetched for the forges in Chan Chan to replicate some of the pieces of possibly captured weapons, especially a cannon, were the Spanish to be routed. Even better if they capture male and female horses. The Inca MAY be able to replicate gunpowder, with sufficient diligence. The Inca may posses archaic gunpowder weapons by the time another attempt rolls around that is more thoroughly curbstomped, resulting in another capture of technology, which the Inca again apply...

The Inca where a very adaptive people when it came to innovation. They were like Rome in that they basically took everything that one of their conquests did better than them and made it their own.
 
I'd say you could probably keep Western South America and the Greater Guarani areas completely native. Cortez fails, whenever some fool decides to attempt to attack the Inca(this invasion DOESN'T occur immediately after a Civil War, during negotiations where the Sapa Inca's army was essentially unarmed, and does NOT result in the Sapa Inca being captured. Divine intervention much?) and are repelled, the Inca begin to adapt. Believe it or not, the Chimu culture had a LONG tradition of metal working, and the Nazca had a long tradition of textiles. The Inca basically inherited these traits upon annexing these territories into the empire. It wouldn't be farfetched for the forges in Chan Chan to replicate some of the pieces of possibly captured weapons, especially a cannon, were the Spanish to be routed. Even better if they capture male and female horses. The Inca MAY be able to replicate gunpowder, with sufficient diligence. The Inca may posses archaic gunpowder weapons by the time another attempt rolls around that is more thoroughly curbstomped, resulting in another capture of technology, which the Inca again apply...

The Inca where a very adaptive people when it came to innovation. They were like Rome in that they basically took everything that one of their conquests did better than them and made it their own.

And if instead of the Iberians initiating contact the Malians (great geographic proximity) or the Ming (or even Song) Chinese; save the Ming, this would mean that there would be the Chimu instead of the Inka if the Song or Malians came to the Americas. Anyways, both were fully capable of doing so and would not have committed genocide on such a scale and trading with the Malians or tributary relations with the Chinese over decades at least or a couple of centuries would give the Amerinds ironworking, crossbows and, if the Chinese, guns and rockets along with a mass of other imports from the exchange between the hemispheres, which, along with the probable alliance with the Old World state that initiated contact with them, making an Iberian conquest almost impossible and thus easily allowing the Amerind societies and cultures to survive, grow and flourish in contemporary times.
 
Would it really be that easy to develop iron weapons and crossbows and so on?

I mean, I know what a sword looks like, but that doesn't mean I know how to make one.

A tradition of ironworking does not equal being able (and willing) to successfully duplicate stuff you've never seen before.
 
So you need to make the native americans to start early agriculture everywhere.
For NAmerica whe need to stop the Little Ice Age. Most of The Agricultural Centers in NA where wiped out by the LIA.
 
What's "sustainable"? Anyhow, agriculture was present on the plains for centuries but after they were introduced to the horse they became far closer to the steppe-cultures of the old world within a century.

Sustainable agriculture would mean able to support truly large populations such as Oaxaca and Chiapas Mexico. The American Southwest is a pretty marginal environment for large scale agriculture. Even when the farming efforts were aided by sophisticated irrigation, there were many periods of famine.
So how do you get the proper draft animals to plow the soil without abandoning them for a more nomadic lifestyle?
Farming would ahve to yield a better lfestyle than a nomadic existance. For the Northeren plains, maybe the Canadians could get real upset about the abortive U.S. invasion of Canada. They then create a buffer of strong Native American tribes. With the urging of the Canadian government, Metis Canadians introduce draft animals, European farming techniques and equally important, modern weapons to the more sedentary tribes of Montana and the Dakotas. The farming concept then spreads to include some or many Lakota and northeren Cheyenne (they like the plentiful trade goods of the sedentary tribes and are tired of fighting for them).

By the time the second wave of anglo settlers arrive (post U.S. civil war), the tribes are numericallya nd economicaly strong enough to resist large scale encroachment. After the civil war, the U.S. government does not want a full scale war. The Native Americans realize that they will lose such a war eventually. The result is a compromise where several states are admitted with Indian magorities.
 
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