AHC: We need a 2nd Mexican Empire WANK!

Too late for that, that is way before the ACW. That in and of itself would butterfly too much for the ACW to be anything close to OTL . POD is stated to be May 1864.

Eh, while that may be the case Guatemala and the rest of Central America wont offer anything nearly as promising as a densly populated California. Adding more land that wouldnt accept a loss of soverignty very well along with the ongoing Maya revolts would make the venture not worth it. Forgive me for ignoring the stated POD but it offers something way more plausible than "Maxie cuddles with the poor and Liberals".

If a foreign imposed polity is to last in a hostile land one of the two major parties of the time has to be drawn into the tent, and fully use its political program. As the Liberals weren't ever to the best of my knowledge yearning for a monarchy in any form, the Conservatives have to be used. They certainly were OTL, but Maxie's mild Liberal streak kept them distanced on some matters. Even if L. N. were to find a willing noble or scion of a dynasty that didn't do such things as offer Juarez the position of P.M. or not restoring some (or all) Church lands, a real problem is still floating and needs to be addressed, the economy. Continual warfare and unrest through out the previous few decades didn't do wonders for the development of a middle class, or a rural population that weren't de facto peons in bonage. How would the Empire deal with this immense issue? I am certainly not a wizard at the finer points of the Liberal and Conservative economic plans but from the bit I know on the latter, they wouldnt have anything to really alleviate these issues. Even if they did, there is still the related issue of a horrid budget for the Imperial regime. As a side note, my constant mention of the sale of church lands started under the Liberals and continued under Max was done by the Habsburg because his tin pot Empire needed the money, badly.

I will ever understand this fascination with a regime that fell apart once the Gallic muscle behind it left. Its sole dynast wasn't what was expected from the local politicians willing to work for the regime, what could one expect if the monarch expresses admiration for their long time political rival (and at the time lead rebel). It had a fairly pathetic military, never trained and armed as effectively as perhaps they could have been. The Empire sorely needed sources of income, but this can be said of the rebels as well. Just having this polity exist past its timely destruction is a wank, at least to me.
 
The only realistic way to wank the Second Meican Empire is for them to expand southward after defeating Juarez.
 
Eh, while that may be the case Guatemala and the rest of Central America wont offer anything nearly as promising as a densly populated California. Adding more land that wouldnt accept a loss of soverignty very well along with the ongoing Maya revolts would make the venture not worth it. Forgive me for ignoring the stated POD but it offers something way more plausible than "Maxie cuddles with the poor and Liberals".

If a foreign imposed polity is to last in a hostile land one of the two major parties of the time has to be drawn into the tent, and fully use its political program. As the Liberals weren't ever to the best of my knowledge yearning for a monarchy in any form, the Conservatives have to be used. They certainly were OTL, but Maxie's mild Liberal streak kept them distanced on some matters. Even if L. N. were to find a willing noble or scion of a dynasty that didn't do such things as offer Juarez the position of P.M. or not restoring some (or all) Church lands, a real problem is still floating and needs to be addressed, the economy. Continual warfare and unrest through out the previous few decades didn't do wonders for the development of a middle class, or a rural population that weren't de facto peons in bonage. How would the Empire deal with this immense issue? I am certainly not a wizard at the finer points of the Liberal and Conservative economic plans but from the bit I know on the latter, they wouldnt have anything to really alleviate these issues. Even if they did, there is still the related issue of a horrid budget for the Imperial regime. As a side note, my constant mention of the sale of church lands started under the Liberals and continued under Max was done by the Habsburg because his tin pot Empire needed the money, badly.

I will ever understand this fascination with a regime that fell apart once the Gallic muscle behind it left. Its sole dynast wasn't what was expected from the local politicians willing to work for the regime, what could one expect if the monarch expresses admiration for their long time political rival (and at the time lead rebel). It had a fairly pathetic military, never trained and armed as effectively as perhaps they could have been. The Empire sorely needed sources of income, but this can be said of the rebels as well. Just having this polity exist past its timely destruction is a wank, at least to me.

Densely populated New York would do even better than California and is as likely to be taken at that late date. California is irrelevant. The easiest expansion is to the south where troops can march without getting into a helpless war with either the USA or CSA.

I agree economic development would be better but invading Central America is better than trying to invade Texas or Arizona Territory.
 
Densely populated New York would do even better than California and is as likely to be taken at that late date. California is irrelevant. The easiest expansion is to the south where troops can march without getting into a helpless war with either the USA or CSA.

I agree economic development would be better but invading Central America is better than trying to invade Texas or Arizona Territory.

An Isthmian canal, even one through an Imperial Mexican Nicaragua, would be a major economic development.
 
An Isthmian canal, even one through an Imperial Mexican Nicaragua, would be a major economic development.

I agree, it would help immensely by allowing Mexico to charge a fortune for crossing it. I know nothing about canal building though. Is it even possible at this early date?
 
I agree, it would help immensely by allowing Mexico to charge a fortune for crossing it. I know nothing about canal building though. Is it even possible at this early date?

It might take a few years to actually happen, but the project might be easier to do in Nicaragua than it was in Panama, even though the latter was narrower.
 
Densely populated New York would do even better than California and is as likely to be taken at that late date. California is irrelevant.

Yes, my idea of Mexico never losing California would indeed entail a later invasion by Mexico to reclaim it from itself. :rolleyes: Forget it though, I'll roll with the original POD.

A canal uniting the two oceans would be swell, but who is footing the bill? If during the Porfiriato there wasnt much done in Mexico besides letting foreign bankers develop particular interests and taking the majority of the profits I doubt this would be any different in a lasting Empire. Like the location of the Panama canal, the isthmus of Tehuantepec has the issue of malaria. I am certian other users have had informative discussions on a potential canal somewhere, but I don't think I would be incorrect in saying it would have financed and lead by foreign interests, who would at least face similar issues as the builders of the Panama canal.

If Nicaragua is considered for a canal, the Brits and Yanquis had previously made some agreements if one were to make one there. In this ATL of a French supported regime swooping south through Central America, they may both get their feathers ruffled, but I don't see that leading to much besides an angry diplomatic note or two.
 
I continue to think territorial acquisition would be secondary to economic and political changes.

Basically, it seems to me that if the 2nd Empire could sort out its political issues, achieve a significant degree of domestic tranquility, and turn its economy around, then that's your WANK right there.

In that context, territorial expansion might well follow naturally, and even somewhat voluntarily, or at least with considerably less conflict and resistance than we would normally expect.
 
I continue to think territorial acquisition would be secondary to economic and political changes.

Basically, it seems to me that if the 2nd Empire could sort out its political issues, achieve a significant degree of domestic tranquility, and turn its economy around, then that's your WANK right there.

In that context, territorial expansion might well follow naturally, and even somewhat voluntarily, or at least with considerably less conflict and resistance than we would normally expect.
Any suggestion as to how the 2nd Empire could have done that given the situation it was in and the opportunities available?
 
Any suggestion as to how the 2nd Empire could have done that given the situation it was in and the opportunities available?

Not my province actually. My best suggestion would be a combination of massive bribery and selected quiet murders.

But the reality is that there's no substitute for research, research, research. Go out, do your own homework. Read up everything you can on the 2nd Empire. Then go and read up everything you can about Mexican history before the 2nd Empire. Read up about Louis Napolean and the French Empire. Caribbean and Latin American politics. Read all that, and then read some more. Scour the internet through google, make Wikipedia your crutch, haunt the library.

Think about the research, think about human nature, possibilities, etc. Cross reference, be creative, spin ideas. Work on notions, and keep doing it.

Look, if you want someone else to do your work for you (1) It's not going to happen, no one on the Board is your monkey, put here for your entertainment; (2) You'll lose all the fun and satisfaction of research and thinking and creativity, the chance to do something remarkable... why would you give that up?

Now personally, I'm busy in real life, working 16 hour days. When I have time, I noodle about with a few small Doctor Who timelines, and eventually, when I have a real block of time, I'll go back to the extremely researched and extremely time consuming Bear Cavalry, or Green Antarctica, or Land of Ice and Mice. I'm booked.

But you know what? If this is a subject that compels and attracts you... please go for it, do it, enjoy. Do something that gets people to sit up and notice. Write something so that people are just waiting for your next post... You have that ability.
 

BigDave1967

Banned
Mexico might have kept it's Empire under Maximilian if Napoleon III hadn't pulled military support for Mexico when threatened by the United States because of the Monroe Doctrine.
 
Any suggestion as to how the 2nd Empire could have done that given the situation it was in and the opportunities available?

Have the French help finance a railroad system. Make it a constitutional monarchy and make a lot of Mexican elite nobles buying them into the system. A couple hundred or so should do. Maybe they can benefit from playing the CSA and USA against each other.
 
Here is something that I've been wondering. Given that Empower Maximillian had a passion for the navy I’d imagine that he’d wish to expand that portion of Mexico’s armed forces.

If he does so how might that effect foreign relations with the rest of North and South America, as well as the future of Cuba and Hawaii in such a TL given that they are desirable naval posts.

I can imagine that such a situation akin to OTL’s British-German relations in the early 1900s may occur since Britain viewed the Naval expansion of Germany as a threat even though that had traditionally good relations including relations in the ruling classes.

Not my province actually. My best suggestion would be a combination of massive bribery and selected quiet murders.

But the reality is that there's no substitute for research, research, research. Go out, do your own homework. Read up everything you can on the 2nd Empire. Then go and read up everything you can about Mexican history before the 2nd Empire. Read up about Louis Napolean and the French Empire. Caribbean and Latin American politics. Read all that, and then read some more. Scour the internet through google, make Wikipedia your crutch, haunt the library.

Think about the research, think about human nature, possibilities, etc. Cross reference, be creative, spin ideas. Work on notions, and keep doing it.

Look, if you want someone else to do your work for you (1) It's not going to happen, no one on the Board is your monkey, put here for your entertainment; (2) You'll lose all the fun and satisfaction of research and thinking and creativity, the chance to do something remarkable... why would you give that up?

Now personally, I'm busy in real life, working 16 hour days. When I have time, I noodle about with a few small Doctor Who timelines, and eventually, when I have a real block of time, I'll go back to the extremely researched and extremely time consuming Bear Cavalry, or Green Antarctica, or Land of Ice and Mice. I'm booked.

But you know what? If this is a subject that compels and attracts you... please go for it, do it, enjoy. Do something that gets people to sit up and notice. Write something so that people are just waiting for your next post... You have that ability.
Thank you, and I'm sorry. I did not intend to make anyone my 'monkey' I just like asking specific questions in the hope that more knowledge member may share with me insights I may not have access to otherwise.

I do enjoy research myself, it’s just proven hard for me to find good materials written in English on the 2nd Empire.

I do intend on writing a fleshed out TL involving the 2nd Empire and I appreciate your encouragement.
 
Here is something that I've been wondering. Given that Empower Maximillian had a passion for the navy I’d imagine that he’d wish to expand that portion of Mexico’s armed forces.

If he does so how might that effect foreign relations with the rest of North and South America, as well as the future of Cuba and Hawaii in such a TL given that they are desirable naval posts.

I can imagine that such a situation akin to OTL’s British-German relations in the early 1900s may occur since Britain viewed the Naval expansion of Germany as a threat even though that had traditionally good relations including relations in the ruling classes.

Under Maximilian's rule a Mexican merchant navy was actually beginning to develop, only to be promptly sold by Juárez once the war was over and the Republic was restored.
 
One thing that I think could work for Maximilian, is that he abolished the federal system and divided mexico in departments, which in theory made administration of the most remote parts of the country much easier and equitative:

2_Imperio_Mexico_1865.PNG
 
One thing that I think could work for Maximilian, is that he abolished the federal system and divided mexico in departments, which in theory made administration of the most remote parts of the country much easier and equitative:

[IMAGE]

I've wondered how postwar Mexico would have fared in our timeline had this administrative system remained in place despite the liberal victory.
 
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