AHC: Wank The Dutch

"Rule the Netherlands! The Netherlands rule the waves!"

What is the easiest way to make the Netherlands one of the strongest nations on the planet, within the top five economies and militaries? Sandwiched between the French and German cores of Europe, I don't think they can expand far into either of those frontiers, but if they were able to conquer Belgium during the 80 Years War, that would nearly double their territory and population. Then the matter of keeping France happy enough to not be eaten arises since if that happens they wouldn't exactly have time to develop an overseas empire. Or perhaps they find an associate in Austria since they wouldn't want the wealth of the low countries in Parisian hands while not having colonial disputes with them?

Perhaps if we combined this broad scenario with more success in India, splitting the subcontinent into British, French and Dutch power blocs with the decline of the Mughals? Or is their time simply spent better in the less competitive but lucrative Malaya?
 
If we go to the 1700s - have them not attempt to fight Britain.

It goes bad. It was always going to go bad. They really shouldn't have done it.
 
i mean. they did win two of the anglo-dutch wars.
With no real long term consequences for England - except for cementing their animosity to the Dutch whilst England got stronger and stronger.

They should've done the whole "Protestant = Best Friends" thing instead
 
This is tricky... the Dutch are well-positioned to be a major commercial power (as they were OTL), but a bit disfavoured geographically - and demographically - from becoming a truly globe-spanning (more so than in OTL at least) "great power". Far more Frenchmen to the south... far more Germans to the east... and the UK sitting within spitting distance across the Nordsee...
How about this - Nap I, for whatever reason, does not remove Louis the Neurotic from the throne of Holland, and doesn't expand the French Empire across to Luebeck in 1810... he still loses, but Louis manages to retain Holland (the Dutch did rather like him, I think...)... his eldest surviving son, GD of Berg and Cleves, dies young roughly as in OTL, and Berg and Cleves is joined to Holland in personal union - giving more available population and a broader industrial base. His last son, whom we all know and love as Nap III, becomes King of Holland, Berg and Cleves, and has a ready-made colonial empire. Maybe he would make better choices as King of Holland than he would as Emperor of the French :)
 
Dutch win the war of independence decisively and conquer what is now Belgium in the seventeenth century. They then take some French territory in the French wars of religion, and things roll from there.
 
Would he? Unless Louis the would-be First turns on his brother after the Russian campaign, I don't think London is giving the dutch empire back.
All depends on how the negotiations go at the Alt-CoV, or wherever the great peace conference is held... maybe brother Lucien would put in a good word for him...
 
"Rule the Netherlands! The Netherlands rule the waves!"

What is the easiest way to make the Netherlands one of the strongest nations on the planet, within the top five economies and militaries? Sandwiched between the French and German cores of Europe, I don't think they can expand far into either of those frontiers, but if they were able to conquer keep Belgium during the 80 Years War, that would nearly double their territory and more than double their population. Then the matter of keeping France happy enough to not be eaten arises since if that happens they wouldn't exactly have time to develop an overseas empire. Or perhaps they find an associate in Austria since they wouldn't want the wealth of the low countries in Parisian hands while not having colonial disputes with them?

Perhaps if we combined this broad scenario with more success in India, splitting the subcontinent into British, French and Dutch power blocs with the decline of the Mughals? Or is their time simply spent better in the less competitive but lucrative Malaya?
Top five when? in the 17th Century the OTL United Provinces probably already qualified (from a eurocentric perspective anyway) and reinforcing that and lengthening the golden period is certainly doable. If you mean until present day however.... , as much as I would like to see that (with a capital properly placed in Brussels or Antwerp), that likely ain't happening without ASB intervention or at least a near-ASB lucky streak.

That said, things to aim for:
  • A full victory in the Dutch Revolt (i.e. all 17 Provinces), unlike the OTL half victory celebrated as a full one up North.
  • Decent centralisation under a stable and efficient form of government, the sooner the better. Waiting for revolutionary France to properly organise things like OTL is over a century too late.
  • If the former point happens under a hereditary ruler, be it an Oranje or one from another House; getting lucky with a well-timed wedding can bring in the neighbouring United Duchies of Jülich-Kleves-Berg (essentially Rhineland minus the now surrounded Electorate of Cologne + Ruhr area, aka the future industrial heart of Germany). Without pre-80YW POD the fast and easy way is for one of William the Rich's sons to sire a daughter who then marries the Dutch ruler.
  • Keeping France friendly, it is too powerful to have as enemy without strong support from another power. That being said, non-Habsburg Low Countries are no threat to France, so that alone does remove a whole bunch of casus belli. If the 17 provinces appear strong and united even an ALT-Louis XIV might think it better to keep them as friends rather than try and nibble away some pieces of land. Keeping France distracted in Spain & Italy or with England obviously also helps.
  • Keeping England less successful in its trade and colonial ambitions as they are THE direct competitor on both fronts. Indirectly, France (preferably as a friendly) being more successful in North-America (French Boston &/or Compagnie de la Baie d'Hudson anyone?) & India would help. No Glorious Revolution is another, though that alone is likely not enough to keep English finances from modernising, so no English Civil War, or even better a long & ruinous one could help too , as long as it leads to a less efficient English government/economy.
  • If you want them to stay more powerful later on, you need to find a place to put a much bigger population. Plausible options (achieving all of them as long-term successes would be near ASB though), besides Jülich & Co include:
    • The Prince-Bishopric of Münster, attacked the United Provinces in OTL together with Louis XIV, something might be possible in a similar conflict or an ALT-30YW
    • East Frisia, taken over by Prussia in OTL after the ruling house died out, a similar deal with the Dutch is plausible
    • The Electorate of Cologne, likely only feasable as a post-HRE mediatisation, like OTL during/after the Napoleonic Wars
    • The Electorate of Trier, same as above
    • The Prince-Archbishopric of Bremen, after East-Frisia, maybe, probably a long shot, but in OTL it was secularised in 1648
    • If the Oranje-Nassau are around, the various Counties of Nassau are close to the United Duchies, but fragmented, so might require some work, possibly in a mediatisation like the Electorates
    • Getting New Netherland & the Cape Colony like OTL, but, unlike OTL, turn both in successfull settler colonies and then into proper overseas provinces sometime in the 19th Century
    • ...

With no real long term consequences for England - except for cementing their animosity to the Dutch whilst England got stronger and stronger.

They should've done the whole "Protestant = Best Friends" thing instead
The colliding interests of their traders and colonial ambitions probably made at least one or two wars inevitable IMO.

Dutch win the war of independence decisively and conquer reconquer or keep what is now Belgium in the seventeenth century. They then take some French territory in the French wars of religion, and things roll from there.
Taking French territory essentially makes a mortal enemy out of France, for a smaller, significantly less populous country with a sizable border with France, that is usually not a good idea. You would need France to utterly collapse and splinter for that to hold.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
"Rule the Netherlands! The Netherlands rule the waves!"

What is the easiest way to make the Netherlands one of the strongest nations on the planet, within the top five economies and militaries? Sandwiched between the French and German cores of Europe, I don't think they can expand far into either of those frontiers, but if they were able to conquer Belgium during the 80 Years War, that would nearly double their territory and population. Then the matter of keeping France happy enough to not be eaten arises since if that happens they wouldn't exactly have time to develop an overseas empire. Or perhaps they find an associate in Austria since they wouldn't want the wealth of the low countries in Parisian hands while not having colonial disputes with them?

Perhaps if we combined this broad scenario with more success in India, splitting the subcontinent into British, French and Dutch power blocs with the decline of the Mughals? Or is their time simply spent better in the less competitive but lucrative Malaya?

One of the strongest? Pfew... a minimal requirement is the Netherlands rulong over all of thr Spanish Netherlands (Netherlands + Belgium + Luxemburg + bordering Flemish France)

A nation were Calvinists and Catholics tolerate each other to avoid 'tyrants' such as the Spanish King and the French taking away hard earned rights.
A nation that has the Navy as OTL, maybe even better because it's bigger and can afford it.
A nation that can mobilize an Army of 75-90k men in war time but has 30,000 in peace time.

The VOC/WIC is more successful in taking over Portuguese territory outside Europe because the Portuguese planters tolerate the Dutch overlords more than the Spanish Habsburgs.
As controversial as this is... successfully controlling Slave Trade to their own Colonies + Spanish Colonies. Basically OTL Dutch Colonies, + supplying Spanish Main + Acquired Portugese Brazil. Considering how much slaves went to Brazil this is a way, there is a lot of revenue to be earned.

At some point the English will surpass the Dutch with regards to Naval abilities. Which means, if the Dutch can get the French on their side they have a strong ally to pressure the English. Ideally if France's Monarchs remain Calvinist and France is 33-35% Calvinist. If the English are more unlucky they remain out of India except the coastal towns, no Bengal etc. The Franco-Dutch Navies seem strong enough to face the English.

You have a Netherlands that is a bit bigger than OTL mainland Netherlands of 1830. It has Brazil, Indonesia, the Cape, several African outposts, a few Caribbean Islands and one of the, if not strongest Navy on earth.
 
Last edited:
The Dutch Republic at it's height was most probably in the top 5 strongest nations OTL. For the Netherlands to be a great power in our age needs a lot of work though. The Industrial Revolution is both a great opportunity and a great problem for any such scenario. On the one hand the Netherlands met a lot of the requirements for industrialization (like the UK did) but failed to enter the Industrial Age until much, much later in the 19th century. To begin with the Netherlands - sans Belgium - lacked the necessary coal and iron deposits it would need. Secondly, Dutch industry was made pretty damn effecient use of windmills so capital was not invested domestically, but abroad. Both problems need to be tackled while at the same time making sure that the changes don't mess up OTL's advantages. A Burgundian scenario will allow for expansion for example, but at the same time this means that the Netherlands will be ruled autocratically.
 
You could probably work an England screw or a Britain screw into this.

Something like the Civil War happens in the seventeenth century between the Stuarts and the oligarchs, but instead of the IOTL oligarchical victory, the war stalemates. The Stuart kings successfully hold onto northern and western England and eliminate the enemy strongholds in these areas. Maybe something different happens with Scotland (this is a similar but different Civil War, so it doesn't start the same way), or they get effective French support. However, the Stuarts are unable to take London or the southeast, and the oligarchs form an alliance with our alternative Netherlands.

Eventually southeastern England just joins the United Provinces as one of the united provinces. They then finally conquer the southern Netherlands, if they haven't already.

Over time, the English of southeastern England, Dutch, Flemish, and Frisian converge into a single new language. The English of northern and western England evolves into a separate language.

What happens afterwards is that our new enlarged United Provinces (Benelux plus Southeastern England) winds up playing the same role as OTL Britain and founds a globe spanning empire. Rump England, joined with Ireland and maybe Scotland, becomes a second tier European power. It probably eventually drifts into becoming a Catholic country. This is POD to get some other center for the British Isles other than London, which becomes an alt Dutch city.

Our alternative Netherlands can use the Belgian coal deposits to fuel its industrial revolution, plus it can always take over coalfields just over the OTL French and German frontiers. It may need eventually to seize Cornwall from rump England to give its fleets clear passage to its colonial empire. Political capital remains in the Hague.
 
Let all thing that went wrong in the 17th and 18th century went right.
- Conquest of Antwerp, after the battle of Kallo 1638
- Even more aggressive politics toward Bishop of Munster, needing a larger State army, cutting small parts over time from this Bishopric, allowing East Frisian to the Union, annexing/ buying Cleve from Brandenburg after 1648.
- Keeping Dutch Brasil
- Having better results during the 1st and 2nd Anglo-Dutch sea wars, resulting in not a loss of New Netherlands ( New York) expanding Dutch Brasil with Surinam/Guyana
- Keeping Formosa
- Not losing the battle of Manilla, the battle was in favor of 5 to 1 for the Dutch against the Spanish/Philippines but still the Dutch lost and is granted as a miracle by the Vatican.
- Establishing a successful colony in Chili.
-Having surviving colonies on Tobago and colonize Trinidad.
-Have William and Mary having a heir, no matter if it is a boy or girl, cementing for a few more decades an alliance.
Or not having William become king Billy at all, leaving the English for a couple of more decades in the dark regarding financing their fleet and army. The financing capabilities of the Dutch Republic allowed it to muster large armies and finance the war fleet.
- Having a better result in the Nine year war instead of a draw, i.e. having not lost the Battle of Texel, which would starve the French as consequence.
- Having not lost the war of the Spanish Succession.
- Conquering all the Spanish Netherlands during the Nine years war and the Spanish Succession war.
- Implementing a more centralized government in the first quarter of half of the 18th century.
- Not getting involved in any other dynastic wars in Europe like Polish succession war, Austrian succession war and Seven years war.
- Consolidating the colonies in South Africa, Americas, Ceylon, Formosa, Java and Philippines.
- Getting nearly all the colonies back after a Revolution war like the French and Napoleon.
- Surviving revolutions in the first halve of the 19th century.

I think this will do it...
 
Last edited:
How "Dutch" does the Netherlands have to be? A rump Burgundy focused around the Pays Bas gives 150+ more years of possible expansion.
- Charles the Bold dies in 1477
- (POD) His daughter, Mary the Bold marries a local nobleman from the low countries. Together, they manage to rally the low countries against the French attempts to reconquer Flanders. They still lose French Burgundy.
- During the French-Burgundian war of 1478-1490, the Flemish cities, already in decline but still rich, throw their fate in with Mary, backing her with their riches. The proto-professional army of Charles the bold gets further developed into the first standing army. Included in their deal is a few command posts reserved for Burghers (to lower the chances of Mary using the army to force the cities into submission. This would later lead to a very meritocratic officer corps. A permanent garrison is placed in the cities along the Somme
- The Flemish cities remain influential and use this influence to push for transparent exchequer chambers (per 'province' and on the Burgundian state level)
- Bruges, in decline since the slibbing of the zwin, makes an appeal to Mary to fund a new channel for them. Mary manages to charm all her subjects for a 1% permanent tax to fund the new sea-channel and other possible infrastructure works. While rather low, it is the first permanent tax in the Burgundian state and would lead to a long term strengthening of the state.
- When 1500 rolls around, Burgundy now consists of the Burgundian Low Countries, with the basics of a standing army, a functional tax system and a loved Duchess.
- The Brussels-Louvain-Antwerp-Malines region becomes the heart of the state, being the centres of court-education-trade-judicairy respectively.
- Mary dies around 1510, leaving behind a handsome son called Philips. A jovial man, unlike his grandfather, he likes to party like his ancestors but dislikes the French. Medieval Dutch becomes the language of the court, slowly trickling down into the other state apparatuses.
- Years of prosperity lead to a extravagant court culture, which require lots of luxury products which the Antwerp merchants provide. Antwerp grows to become the largest trading city on the north sea and one of the bigger cities north of the alps.
- Another French-Burgundian war leads to a minor Burgundian victory, with only a few border villages being exchanged. More importantly, the French crown renounces all claims to the Burgundian patrimony. In return, the Burgundian dynasty renounces all claims to the french throne.
- The French court remains in the Loire valley, as Francois finds Paris too exposed to the Burgundian forces along the Somme. Orleans becomes the permanent seat of the Kings of France instead.
-Around 1530, Charles II (OTL Charles V) becomes the Duke of the Low Countries. Unlike OTL where he had to struggle to keep his conglomerate state together, he inherits a stable and strong state, the richest in Europe at the time.
- He expands Burgundian influence in the Rhine region, managing to put bastard brothers, children and all kinds of Burgundian Cadets on the Bishops' thrones in the Rhineland and Westphalia. A military expedition against the Frisians means the end of their free existence and the creation of the County of Frisia. The Low Countries reach from the Somme in the West to Munster in the east and from Frisia in the north to the Meuse in the south.

Getting more and more pushback from the Imperial Princes, Charles II decides to focus on overseas expansion. The traders and merchants of the Flemish cities, the growing Holland cities and Antwerp gladly support him in these endeavors. Antwerp is expanded, receiving two docks for the foreign trade. A bridge is built over the Scheldt, and wharves are established on the left bank of the Scheldt. Market buildings and banks are built, and the future of Antwerp is crowned with a massive new Bourse. The future seems bright.

And yet, problems are brewing. Internally, Protestantism grows. Differences between the counties grow. Externally there are also problems. The Iberian kings see the Low Countries as a dangerous competitor. The French king sees it as a threat. The princes of the Empire and the Emperor are also fearful of the powerhouse in the northwest. Multiple conflicts break out, one after the other. They sap the strength of Charles slowly but surely. But Charles manages to lead the low countries to victory. In the 1550ies, with the last rivals stalemated, he decides to abdicate in favor of his son, Philips the 4th(?).

Philips the 4th inherits a tired state. Taxes weigh heavily and the regions that feed the center have suffered under decades of constant warfare. Protestant and particularist revolts have wrecked havoc throughout all his domains. Philips decides to grant a measure of autonomy to keep the peace while slowly reorganizing the administrative structure to break the old powers of the particularists. A high court is formed in Malines, and a central tax administration in Brussels. A new college is built in Louvain to train new administrators without lots of bonds to the locals. Second sons of nobility in the Picardy region gets sent north to Frisia after finishing their training. Frisians get sent to Luxembourg etc etc. Law is codified and generalized. While people are still relatively unequal, there are less differences. Noblemen get judged as noblemen, no matter if they are from Artois or from Holland.

Meanwhile, Dutch traders sail the seven seas in search for riches. Their ships evolve into faster and steadier designs, while companies are formed under the new laws made by Philips fund these voyages. Trading posts dot the coasts of America, Africa and India. Towards the end of his life, P IV plans to humiliate the Iberian kings at sea and have his nation become the pre-eminent sea power. He dies before he can execute his master plan, and the grand design gets shelved. His successor is a lesser man, but still manages to rule decently until his death in 1616, leaving the low countries in the hands of Karel van Boergondieën (Charles III of Burgundy), only 16 years old at the time.

Then, Charles III, the boldest, is crowned Duke of the Low Countries. Heir to a reformed, prospering and strong nation, he would be the Alexander of the 17th century. His hot-headed interference with the frontier regions, the banding together of the kingdom of Orleans and the princes of the HRE, would lead to one of the most destructive conflicts of the 17th century: the 40 years war. The details are too much to describe but the end result is that the Low Countries achieve a dominant position in the northwest of Europe. Spanning from the Seine-Marne line to Bremen, Charles III had crushed both the french king and his spanish and imperial allies (with the help of various allies himself, most notably, the Swedes, the Poles and the Austrians, who almost partitioned the HRE in spheres of influence. Overseas, the spanish, portuguese and french colonial empires lie in ruin. Their fleets battered in battles with the Burgundians, the English preying on isolated ships and trade posts and local revolts, they have no choice but to distance themselves from a lot of their colonies, mostly in Africa and India. Charles III manages to get the Asiento, and a monopoly on almost all trade past the cape of good hope.

Wow this was a long stream of conscious type of thing but at this point the Netherlands (if you even can call it this ) is the pre-eminent european power, with a burgeoning colonial empire. The english are only a small fish in the colonial game but they have also made quite the gains in the 40 years war.
 
- Implementing a more centralized government in the first quarter of half of the 18th century.
This is doable with a different Peace of Utrecht, as Hensius might be able to carry out his reforms with a more successful treaty.

Conquest of Antwerp, after the battle of Kallo 1638
This is IMO the single best POD, because holding Southern Netherlands would likely force the Regente to care more about the Army.

An even better POD is keeping Antwerp from falling in the first place, it would keep much of the Regente in Antwerp/Flanders instead of a mass/near total exodus to the north.

Even more aggressive politics toward Bishop of Munster, needing a larger State army, cutting small parts over time from this Bishopric, allowing East Frisian to the Union
Keeping (or retaking) Antwerp/Flanders and accordingly maintaining a bigger army would likely result in this.

Not losing the battle of Manilla, the battle was in favor of 5 to 1 for the Dutch against the Spanish/Philippines but still the Dutch lost and is granted as a miracle by the Vatican
I would prefer focusing on South America and areas south of Virginia in North America e.g. Dutch Louisiana - there would be less direct clash with England.

Have William and Mary having a heir, no matter if it is a boy or girl, cementing for a few more decades an alliance
I can see this leading to a better Peace of Utrecht for the Dutch.


not having William become king Billy at all, leaving the English for a couple of more decades in the dark regarding financing their fleet and army. The financing capabilities of the Dutch Republic allowed it to muster large armies and finance the war fleet.
Or a different Civil War a.k.a a non-Cromwell Commonwealth of England/no Restoration - which could result in different Anglo-Dutch relations. I mean, it could butterfly away the OTL Franco-Dutch War (which IMO was the most destructive to the Dutch Republic in the long run) or drastically change it. A hypothetical Anglo-Dutch alliance ITTL would be more equal than under OTL William III (during which the Dutch basically functioned as a cash cow for King Billy in his wars).

For example, TTL Commonwealth of England decides to (correctly) consider New France as low-hanging fruit and attack Quebec, thus poisoning Anglo-French relations earlier.

OTOH, a different Commonwealth of England would have become a behemoth earlier, since Charles II/James II did weaken its military a lot following Restoration.
 
Botg England and the Netherlands are going to orient themselves on trade sooner or later, which would inevitably bring them into conflict. An alliance or even an understanding between the two is per definition of limited duration until one becomes top dog, as the English did in the 18th century. And to kick in English teeth, the Dutch are going to need a French alliance. Of course, odds are a French king is going to get greedy at some point, so the Dutch can't just ignore the rest of the continent in a diplomatic sense.It's not a simple task, which doesn't mean the Dutch cannot pull it off. Keeping all 17 original Provinces or a solid majority of them at least is a prerequisite to maintain relevancy.
 
Your best bet, without going into the Medieval Era, would be a complete Dutch Victory in the 80 Years War, and the war being way shorter and less destructive. The four richest of the 17 Provinces were Brabant, Flanders, Holland, and Zealand, in that order. And the Dutch Republic only had access to the last two of those. The port of Antwerp was the largest commercial hub in all of Europe before the war. Though much of it was ruined and much of the capital fled north to Amsterdam in the course of the war, it's loss was another huge blow to the Republic. The demographic and economic damages of the decades of fighting (along with general strife and instability) were far from disastrous, but they weren't good. Avoiding as much of the war as possible, and ensuring all 17 provinces enter the union are the two most important factors in wanking the Dutch imo.

We're also running into a bit of a national identity problem. It is much easier to wank the Netherlands than it is to wank the Dutch. Before the 80 Years War, the entire populace of the 17 Provinces would have identified as Netherlanders. They would have identified with the province they were from, the language they spoke, and their nation of origin (In this case, the term 'Netherlands' and 'Netherlander' referring to the entirety of the modern day Low Countries), and most principally, their faith. The distinction of the region into three nations, and only one of them being called 'The Netherlands', is very modern. There is much more territory, wealth, and people in the hands of the Netherlands as a whole than there is in the hands of the Dutch.

No matter what however, the simple factor of raw size will always inhibit the Netherlands compared to her neighbors. While like OTL she can make up the difference with larger amounts of wealth, France, England, Spain, and Germany will always have larger populations. So while the Netherlands can always do better than OTL, she could not achieve dominance along the lines of Great Britain. That is, not without a complete screw of every other European Power, or a bunch of ethnic cleansing to turn the Rhine valley Dutch. Both of which seem ASB.


For a much later PoD, having the United Kingdom of the Netherlands survive would put probably put the country in the top 15 GDPs of the modern world, if history roughly plays out similarly. It's not an impossible task, but I've read far less on the topic than I have for the 80 Years War, so I do not have as much to say. It'd be a smaller wank, but a wank nonetheless.


I'm working on a timeline that should be posted during this spring or summer about this topic. The PoD I'll probably use is having the Dutch win the battle of Mookerheyde. This butterflies into the Dutch having a generally stronger position while that of the Spanish deteriorates throughout the 1570s, with an earlier restart of support by the English. This leads to an Anglo-Spanish War around 7 years earlier than OTL in the late 1570s, only enhancing the position of the Dutch. When the Portuguese Succession Crisis happens in 1580, Phillip has far less resources to press his claim. So he decides Portugal is an easier land to rule than the Netherlands, and the Spanish simply pull out by the 1580s. Escaping much of the damage of the later war, and with a larger territorial area, a Republic of the Seventeen United Provinces is in a far better position than OTL.
 
Top