AHC: Wank the dreadnought race

Admittedly, the boom of naval construction from 1905 to the start of WWI was something of a wank historically. But how much more extreme could it get? What's the maximum number of dreadnoughts and battlecruisers that could get built?

Some ideas:

-No Russo-Japanese war, so Russian and Japan have bigger naval budgets

-The Netherlands gets some dreadnoughts

-Germany refuses to loose the naval race

-Canada funds the construction of some battleships

-WWI is delayed or butterflied, along with the cancellation of building plans that accompanied it.


What can you guys think of? Also, I don't just want to go for quantity, can some really huge ships like the Tillman Maximum battleship get built and start another phase?
 
Well, no WW1 is the best option

- Austria completes its second class of dreadnoughts, presumably looks towards a third generation
- Spain completes its first generation on time, begins its second generation and sees them through
- Italy builds the Caracciolos
- France builds the Normandies and begins the next class
- Russia completes the various classes already begun, and begins its 16"-gunned programme
- Greece gets the two it has ordered (Salamis and one from France)
- The Ottomans get the 2 already completing, and a third and probably fourth under way
- Brazil orders a replacement as Riachuelo
- Argentina and Chile probably order a second class
- The Netherlands orders its battlecruisers, probably from German yards

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Why on earth would the Netherlands order inferior German designs?
Dutch designs from that era are ranked amongst the best.

From what I recall, Dutch yards either did not have the capability or the experience so building them in German yards which did was a preferred option

Who drew up the Dutch designs you refer to?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Why on earth would the Netherlands order inferior German designs?
Dutch designs from that era are ranked amongst the best.

I've never heard of the Netherland designing better battlecruisers than the Germans. For the most part the Dutch have been heavily influenced by the Germans.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Grey Wolf's list works well.

Add the USA does a major naval program about the time the race is slowing down. Add the 17"/18" guns are built by some power so lots of old ships are obsolete, and the race keeps up a high pace.
 
Won't the grotesque military spending eventually lead to socialist revolution?

I don't think so. It took the far higher spending and horrific death tolls of WWI to get Red revolutions IOTL. Even the most absurd naval arms race won't cost remotely as much as WWI did.
 
I don't think so. It took the far higher spending and horrific death tolls of WWI to get Red revolutions IOTL. Even the most absurd naval arms race won't cost remotely as much as WWI did.

BigWillyG

Would agree, at least for another decade or so. Avoid the war and keep Germany in the race - there was some signs they were giving up, at least unofficially - and then the US not only continues its programmes of OTL but goes for the 1916 programme. This is likely to spark Japanese competition again and with Britain committed to maintaining its own naval supremacy as a matter of both national survival and pride and the race could continue a good bit longer.

Without the experience of WWI and the tests following it I don't know what the RN response to the US/Japanese 1916 programmes but since Britain was developing 18" guns for Furious I would expect them to play a part.

Would be very expensive for all concerned but a lot less than a war if that is avoided.

Steve
 
Manpower issues

At a certain point, getting enough sailors will prove even more ruinous than the cost of the ships. Modern ships required diverting very capable workers away from the economy for extended periods. Even if the navies get rid of older ships rapidly, the new ones require larger crews.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Won't the grotesque military spending eventually lead to socialist revolution?

Germany budget was 2,500 million marks for the military, and closer to 7,500 million marks total budget. Adding another 15" gun ship is 65 million marks per year, and adding 10-15 more commission capitals is probably 100-150 million marks more operating budget per year.

I don't see a 10% budget increase to the military or 3% overall causing a revolution unless the nation was close such as Russia in 1905.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
At a certain point, getting enough sailors will prove even more ruinous than the cost of the ships. Modern ships required diverting very capable workers away from the economy for extended periods. Even if the navies get rid of older ships rapidly, the new ones require larger crews.

From Memory, the Germany navy was around 100,000 people in a nation of 70,000,000. It is hard to see manpower as the breaking issue, since it would be under 50,000 extra men. The active army is 700,000 with probably 4-5 times that in reserve.

And we have to ask what % of the ships are in reserve at any given time. Most of the pre-dreads were in reserve/training status at the start of WW1 for Germany, so if the building is faster, it likely means more ships in reserve and more active. For example, if Germany is building 3 of the 15"/17" guns ships per year by 1920, the 11" and 12" will quickly go in reserve status and the predreadnoughts will be scrapped. Post war test indicates that the predreads armor would fail against 15" guns at all ranges and all angles. They are literal death traps since any AP shell that functions is exploding deep enough in the ship to be in the magazine spaces.
 
From Memory, the Germany navy was around 100,000 people in a nation of 70,000,000. It is hard to see manpower as the breaking issue, since it would be under 50,000 extra men. The active army is 700,000 with probably 4-5 times that in reserve.

And we have to ask what % of the ships are in reserve at any given time. Most of the pre-dreads were in reserve/training status at the start of WW1 for Germany, so if the building is faster, it likely means more ships in reserve and more active. For example, if Germany is building 3 of the 15"/17" guns ships per year by 1920, the 11" and 12" will quickly go in reserve status and the predreadnoughts will be scrapped. Post war test indicates that the predreads armor would fail against 15" guns at all ranges and all angles. They are literal death traps since any AP shell that functions is exploding deep enough in the ship to be in the magazine spaces.

Z plan required an expansion of the KM to 200 000 men in peace time (it was built around a force of 8 BB and 5 BC). A larger 1920s dreadnough navy would probably require close to 250 000. Unlike the Army, were you can use all kinds of people and have them serve for short terms, naval service requires techically qualified people and longer service terms. The drain in the economy would be large.
By 1920, even if you drop the first gen octogonal BB, you still have the Kaiser and Konig classes, plus the Baden and Sachen classes plus all the BC (VdTann, the Moltkes, the Derflinggers and the Mackensens (under another name probably)
And German Cruisers and Destroyers were getting larger and submarine numbers expanding rapidly.

In a time of industrial expansion, this loss of manpower would be a serious handicap
 
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