AHC: Wales and Cornwall stay connected
- Thread starter ggarner57
- Start date
Very hard. Once the Thames Valley is taken, it is somewhat inevitable they push through to the Severn delta. You'd need the invaders to be held back to Kent and East Anglia (which were Jutish and Angle anyway) and for the Britons to remain in charge of most of the island.
You would have more success keeping Wales connected to Cumbria.
You would have more success keeping Wales connected to Cumbria.
As above.
They need to hold London and reduce settlement of the Thames Valley.
Then Mercia needs to be forestalled at pushing west.
At best I see the "border" in the south at the (Hampshire) Avon.
I agree it is easier for the Cumbria (the Old North) to remain connected to northern Wales (the New North)
I'd generally agree with Socrates, but the Bristol Channel isn't exactly an huge obstacle. Any strong Britton principality north of it would have little problem supporting a connection (Cadwallon of Gwynned making alliance with what remained of Dumnonia, for exemple)
I doubt that would be enough : Wessex, had ties right from the start with Dumnonia, probably because Wessex lines and elite were mixed with Saxon from the Litus?) and Romano-Brythonic origins. This, plus the obvious geographical proximity, would make a terrestrial link on the upper Thames basin hard to maintain.
I doubt that would be enough : Wessex, had ties right from the start with Dumnonia, probably because Wessex lines and elite were mixed with Saxon from the Litus?) and Romano-Brythonic origins. This, plus the obvious geographical proximity, would make a terrestrial link on the upper Thames basin hard to maintain.
I understood they wanted a physical land connection, but yes, they could have an alliance over the sea.
Oh, I prefectly agree with your posts.
I just wanted to point that political connection didn't implied a land connection : a more or less common connection over the sea is far from being unknown, as with Dal Riata, Dumnonia, etc.
Culturally, politically or else, the absence of a land connection isn't really a problem if ggarner57 wants Cornwall or Devon being in the continuity of what eventually became Wales.
The problem being the existence of Wessex, that's able to take relatively easilt on the peninsula. But get rid of that, and such situation could be achieved.
Yeah, that's my point. I was trying to imply that Cornwall and Devon remain part of Wales. While a land connection is far easier than a sea one in terms of staying united, it would involve screwing Wessex to the point they can't threaten very often. Of course, the Welsh kingdoms keeping some form of High King or united leadership against the Saxons would help, but that might be too much to ask for.
Well, having southern-eastern kingdoms taking the lead could do that.
Let's assume for that some reason Wessex in Hampshire becomes a sub-kingdom or a tribal kingdom under eventual Sussex's domination...
I doubt it would mean peoples along Thames would leave Romano-Brittons alone, and Middle Anglian peoples would likely quickly deal with the divided kingdoms north-east of Dumnonia (such as Cirencester).
Still, Dumnonia itself could not only survive in one piece, but even manage to dominate places as Bath as a sub-kingdom (as for Cornwall or Glastonbury probably were).
Interestingly, it could mean an earlier Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England, trough a more important Merovingian influence on southern England.
How would an early christianized and somehow englarged Sussex (no pun intended) would deal with a somehow safer Dumnonia and its associated kingdoms?
Well, it wouldn't be impossible to have some rulers of Dumnonia, if they get to sattelize southern-western Brythonic kingdoms, to claim High Kingship.
Effectively, it would rather mean something like Selyf's assumption of the title, as in a ruler unifying various forces against Anglo-Saxons (without real tentative of hegemony over the different kingdoms, safe regionally).
In this situation, the obvious targets would be Middle Anglians peoples, which in case of victory over Anglo-Saxons could make some kingdoms as Gwent entering into the High King of Dumnonia's sphere. How long it would last is anyone's guess, but it could mean a link between North Wales (Gwynedd and associated kingdoms) and South Wales (Dumnonia and associated kingdoms).
That said, let's be clear : we're NOT talking of any unified or even peaceful kingship there. High Kingship is an extremely unstable structure, and tendencies would be more on division than unification.
But Dumnonia could be well on its way to be considered as, if peripherical, Brythonic kingdom lasting as much as many of IOTL Welsh ones (and, maybe as a Breton kingdom from the other side of the sea as well, making Dumnonia belonging to both regional ensembles for a short time?)
The Britons win the battle of Deorham in 577AD killing both Ceawlin and Cuthwine thus causing Wessex to have to retrench and recover. This means that the Britons continue to hold Glevum, Aqua Sulis and Corinium this maintaing the land link between Dumnonia and South Wales.
However this may well just delay the eventual Wessex take over of the area as the Britons seemed unable to not divide up into smaller feuding units.
However this may well just delay the eventual Wessex take over of the area as the Britons seemed unable to not divide up into smaller feuding units.