AHC: Vikings in the Orient

How could Vikings reach China, Korea, or Japan?

They can be Christianized, but they must fight like Vikings. They must speak Old Norse.

I would suggest somehow they become trade and exploration focused (like a Scandinavian version of Portugal), and the income from doing so allows them to retain a military edge despite individually having less raiding experience. They could also adopt more advanced naval weaponry.
 
Linking into the river networks of Russia, they start purchasing goods brought by caravan as per OTL. A misunderstanding of some sort on the Persian bank of the Caspian (maybe thatz crusade you were thinking of) leads to Rus traders being temporarily excluded from trading with their Persian middlemen. In dismay, they try to reach the next link down the chain and go to the Volga Bulgars. With the increased demand they represent, the Bulgars organise more caravans east and take along Varangian traders. Soon, Varangians are an established presence on the northern route and in due time, their representatives reach the Uighur kingdom, then China. From there, individual Varangian traders travel to Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia and Malaysia. THe journey becomes a heroic legend immortalised in song, and a rite de passage for young men in the trading communities.
 
A map from the Wiki page on Vikings, missing the principality of Antioch. They were raiding pretty deep into western Asia, a bit further isn't beyond the realms of possibility but perhaps requires a PoD beyond Viking control.



 
A map from the Wiki page on Vikings, missing the principality of Antioch. They were raiding pretty deep into western Asia, a bit further isn't beyond the realms of possibility but perhaps requires a PoD beyond Viking control.
Asia is much wider than that. To get to China or Korea would be at least twice the distance they had already travelled.
 
earlier global warming opens up the Arctic ocean, Vikings blocked by stronger England and France to the south, Arabs and Mongols to the south and east they sail east to Japan along the northern coast
 
The vikings were well known to carry their ships across isthmus', they could have made the journey from the lower Nile to the Red Sea, and maybe establish Indian trade. When was Zheng He around? I would like to see him meet vikings.
 

katchen

Banned
katchen

Here is a list of some of the river routes that the Cossacks used to penetrate Siberia between the 1200s and the 1600s. Bear in mind that during this period the climate was actually a lot COLDER than it was during the Viking Period (the Medieval Warm Period) from 900-1200. This segment is taken directly from Wikipedia: Siberian River Routes:
Ob Basin: Near Tobolsk was the capital of the Khanate of Sibir, which was conquered in 1582. North down the Irtysh to its juncture with the Ob River. 750km up the Ob to Narym (1594), up the Ket River(1602) about 300 km to its headwaters. Here a portage leads to the Yenisei River at Yeniseysk(1619). Yeniseysk is about 1400 km from Tobolsk and 3200 km from Moscow.
OR: from the Irtysh-Ob juncture 450 km up the Ob to the Vakh, 500 km up the Vakh, portage to the Sym, down it to the Yenesei, upstream to Yenisesk.
Yenisey and Lena Basins: Yeniseysk is on the Yenisei River just north of its juncture with the Angara River. From Yeniseysk east up the Angara to the Ilim River, upstream to Ilimsk (1630), portage to Kuta River, short trip downstream to Ust-Kut(1631) on the Lena River. From here northeast down the Lena about 1400 km to Yakutsk, which is 4900 km east of Moscow. Yakutsk is a major stopping point and administrative center. Then 125 km up the Lena to the Aldan, up the Aldan River to Ust-Maya, then up the Maya River or its right branch the Yudoma River.
Okhotsk: From either of the last two, it is about 150 km over 2000 ft mountains to the Pacific (Okhotsk Coast 1639, Okhotsk town, 1647). Pack horses were used here. Okhotsk is 800 km east southeast of Yakutsk and 5,600 km east of Moscow. After 1715 there were shipbuilding facilities at Okhotsk, allowing sea travel to the Kamchatka Peninsula, the Kuril Islands, the Aleutian Islands and Alaska.
To the Amur: From 1643 to 1689 the Russians attempted to penetrate from the Lena south to the Amur region but were driven back by the Manchus. See Russian-Manchu border conflicts. From 1689 to 1859 the Russo-Chinese border was the Argun River and the Stanovoy Mountains. In 1859 Russia annexed the Amur region. From the west, the Russians penetrated to Ulan-Ude (1666), Chita (1653) and Nerchinsk (1654) toward the Argun. From 1727 much Russo-Chinese trade shifted to Kyakhta near where the Selenge River crosses the current Russo-Mongol border.
[edit] Northern Route

From at least the 12th century, Russian Pomors navigated the White and Barents Seas. At some date, they entered the Ob Gulf or portaged across the Yamal Peninsula. From the Gulf of Ob to the Taz Estuary, up the Taz River, past Mangazeya(1601), portage to Yanov Stan on the Turukhan River, leading to Turukhansk(1607) on the Yenisei at its juncture with the Lower Tunguska. East up the Lower Tunguska. Where it turns south, portage to the Chona River, a tributary of the Vilyuy River - the junction of these two rivers has now been flooded, forming the Viluyskoe Reservoir. East along the Vilyuy to the Lena River, and then up the Lena to Yakutsk. It was also possible to continue down the Lower Tunguska to near Kirensk(1630) (175 km northeast of Ust-Kut), make a short portage to the Lena, and down the Lena to Yakutsk. Yakutsk is about 2400 km from the Taz Estuary.
After about 1700 most trade shifted south and the route west of Turukhansk was largely abandoned.
[edit] Northeast

From the mouth of the Lena River, along the coast to the mouth of the Kolyma River, up to Bolshoy Anyuy River, portage, down the Anadyr River to Anadyrsk(1650). One could continue down the Anadyr to the Pacific, but the area was too baren to be of interest. The area northeast of this route was avoided because of the warlike Chukchis. About 1700 Russians entered the Kamchatka Peninsula from Anadyrsk and later sailed there from Okhotsk. It is 1800 km from Yakutsk to the Bering Strait.
[edit] Southwest

After the conquest of Astrakhan in 1566, Russia expanded southeast around the southern base of the Urals. This involved increasing political control over the Nogai Horde, the Kalmyks and the northern Kazakhs, followed by varying degrees of peasant colonization. Another route was up the Irtysh toward the Altai country (Semipalitinsk, 1718).
Additionally, also from Wikipedia (the Pechora River),:
[edit] Along the Pechora

The river rises in the Ural Mountains in the south-eastern corner of the Komi Republic. This area is part of the Pechora-Ilych Nature Reserve. On the other side of the Urals are the headwaters of the Northern Sosva River. The river flows south, then west and turns north near Yaksha which is the head of navigation for small boats. A portage led south to the Kama River basin. To the east is the upper Vychegda River, a branch of the Northern Dvina. The river flows past Komsomolsk-na-Pechore to Ust-Ilych where the Ilych River joins from the east, then Northwest to Troitsko-Pechorsk (1,359 kilometres (844 mi) from the mouth), north to Vuktyl and Ust-Shchuger where the Shchugor River joins from the east. The river then flows north to Pechora town, where the railway from Vorkuta crosses, then north to Ust-Usa where the Usa River joins from the east (The Usa was once an important river route into Siberia.). The Pechora then curves northwest, west, and west southwest. Izhma River joins from the south. It then flows further west to Ust-Tsilma (425 kilometres (264 mi) from the mouth) where the Pizhma River (Komi Republic) joins from the southwest and the Tsilma River joins from the west. (Before modern times people traveled up the Tsilma and portaged to the Pyoza River to reach the White Sea.) Then the Pechora turns north and crosses the arctic Arctic Circle and the border of the Nenets Okrug; Pustozyorsk; Naryan-Mar, the Nenets capital and a port at the head of the Pechora delta; Pechora Bay; Pechora Sea; and finally the Barents Sea.


There is no apparent reason why the Vikings, who reached the Northern Dvina, couldn't have gone a few hundred miles further in a summer and reached the Pechora River, rowed up the Pechora to the Usa River and then portaged the Urals to the Northern Sosva, thence to the Ob. From the Lower Ob, Norwegians going a viking would have the choice of going downriver and then further east, discovering the Yensei and then going South in a straight line as far as what is now Minusinsk or perhaps even Tura beyond the Tuva Canyon and reached the Eastern Turks, trading for furs as they went. From there, they could join a fur caravan to one of the Northern Chinese citiies (though they would probably stay on the Yensei for a few years and learn the local language first).

Or they could turn right at the Lower Tunguska River and follow it all the way up to it's head of navigation in a knorr. At that point, they would be no more than 30 miles from the Lena. They could follow the Lena east, trading as they go (at some point, they would need to winter in for the season), discover the mouth of the Lena and the Lena's tributaries. Maybe they would discover the Sea of Okhotsk first. Maybe they would travel up the Vitim or the Olekma first, where the proto Mongols live, and find a portage to the Ingoda or the Amur River itself, which they could follow to it's mouth. At that point, there is a three mile wide strait between Sakhalin and the mainland. Vikings who follow the mainland come to Korea (as they do if they explore the Ussuri River). Vikings who explore the Sakhalin coast reach Sakhalin's tip, then Hokkaido, then Kamakura Japan.

Or Vikings can travel up the Ob to the Irtysh River and follow the Irtysh to it's source in the Altai Mountains. At that point, they are only 150 miles from the Uighur empire of Kara Khitai on the Silk Road to China. Or they can follow the Ob all the way to the Altai and again, encounter the Turks. Plenty of opportunities any way they go.

If they get to Japan, Christian or pagan, that's where it really gets interesting. Because Japanese ronin (masterless samurai) are likely to take up with them and come back with them. As are Buddhist monks of various sects, especially if contact is made in the 900s, before Norway is Christianized under King Olaf. And even if later, the trade routes may very well become a refuge for the non-Christian Norse, merging with Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Evenki, Turkic and Tengrist Mongols in a syncretic stew of a new civilization.

And yes, there is plenty of opportunity for a new civilization to develop at least on a simple level, throughout Siberia. All that is needed is to add domesticated yak to already existing reindeer herding and perhaps crossbreed them with musk oxen, and much higher populations become possible throughout the forest and tundra--even perhaps expanding into Alaska and Canada. And yes, the Mongols did and do raise yak, which they borrowed from the Tibetians and the only reason yak herding did not spread throughout Siberia was that the Mongols did not bother to conquer Siberia. So some sort of Viking-Tungusic-Japanese amalgam along these trade routes becomes possible, at least until unified with the Mongols and will likely greatly influence how the Mongols evolve since the Mongols will be part of it.In fact, if they get there early enough, the Turks do not have to become Muslim--or become very different sorts of Muslims than the orthodox Sunni Muslims they become OTL. Lots of ways this can go. Lots of different possible time lines.


 

Flubber

Banned
Here is a list of some of the river routes that the Cossacks used to penetrate Siberia...


A nice list that completely ignores why the Cossacks were exploring Siberia in the first place.

There is no apparent reason why the Vikings, who reached the Northern Dvina, couldn't have gone a few hundred miles further in a summer...

While there's no physical barriers the Vikings couldn't do that, the question still being ignored is why the Vikings would want to do that.
 
A nice list that completely ignores why the Cossacks were exploring Siberia in the first place.



While there's no physical barriers the Vikings couldn't do that, the question still being ignored is why the Vikings would want to do that.
Maybe some alt people tell of some riches of alt china.
 

katchen

Banned
Well, yes, if the Vikings would want to go all the way to Persia and Byzantium to trade (let alone to Vinland for furs), why wouldn't they want to go to China, Japan and Korea if they heard about them? Or into Siberia for more furs? If there's one thing about furs, traplines get trapped out very easily and then trappers and traders keep having to go further and further afield for more. It's easy to trap more mink, sable and marten than are being born in an area. :(
 
What if the vikings discover North America's western side when they go east, and Eastern side with the Vinland stuff. Imagine the ships they could build with redwoods!:)
 

katchen

Banned
If the Arctic is warm enough during the summer, there's no reason why the Vikings could not circumnavigate the Arctic.It's a historical climatology problem.
 
I did once try to start a discussion about climatological feedback mechanisms being triggered by the little climatic optimum around 1200, leading to an ice-free arctic. There was very little interest.

Given the number of world rivers than run north into the arctic, it would mean a lot more changes then Norse in the orient though.

Its a distace problem too. While the vikings were not adverse to the concept of sailing to a new place on the general expectation that there would be people to trade with or ravage, or land to settle...this is a long distance. Greenland norse went west into the isalnds of the Canadian arctic for Narwhale horn and other commodities. Still, from there around Alaska is a long way indeed. The treshold for going south would seem to be much lower.
 
Its a shame the Song Dynasty didn't control that big chunk of western Asia like the Tang Dynasty did, it would make this challenge a lot easier.
 
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