AHC: Venetian Republic lasts until the mid-1800s

Challenge: Have the Venetian Republic last until at least the mid-1800s. Bonus points if it lasts until modern day.

Easy. You have to avoid the Napoleonic wars. The Republic was stagnant and bloated but it could still limp along for a while longer. Same with the Republic of Genoa. Both were on life support but Napoleon's the one who delivered the death blow.
 
Easy. You have to avoid the Napoleonic wars. The Republic was stagnant and bloated but it could still limp along for a while longer. Same with the Republic of Genoa. Both were on life support but Napoleon's the one who delivered the death blow.

Seconded. No Napoleon and it'll last at least until the cause of Italian nationalism takes off. It may even last longer in a reduced form if there's a large enough group who feel Venetian (and want an internal revolution) rather than Italian to resist a total takeover.
 
Seconded. No Napoleon and it'll last at least until the cause of Italian nationalism takes off. It may even last longer in a reduced form if there's a large enough group who feel Venetian (and want an internal revolution) rather than Italian to resist a total takeover.

Any chance of Venice pulling off reforms to help save themselves? Similar to what the Ottomans attempted? And how strong a force was Nationalism before the Napoleonic wars? I mean I know the wars strengthened those movements but by how much? If they were weak enough I can see Venice lasting at least into the 20th century maybe even longer.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Nationalism was a factor before Napoleon, but not to as great an extent then. The Hundred Years War was a cause for French Nationalism, for the Spanish, it was the Reconquista. (at least until Catalan Nationalism ended that)

I can see Italian Nationalism be a factor, but it would take an existential threat to the Italian states to cause something like this...or a Napoleon.

As for a surviving Venice, Napoleon signalled the final death knell of the Republic of San Marco, and no reforms could ever hope to save the Republic. Though what if Venice sided with France, at least initially. Could it hope to survive as a friend and ally of France for a time?
 
Any chance of Venice pulling off reforms to help save themselves? Similar to what the Ottomans attempted? And how strong a force was Nationalism before the Napoleonic wars? I mean I know the wars strengthened those movements but by how much? If they were weak enough I can see Venice lasting at least into the 20th century maybe even longer.

Nationalism was a factor before Napoleon, but not to as great an extent then. The Hundred Years War was a cause for French Nationalism, for the Spanish, it was the Reconquista. (at least until Catalan Nationalism ended that)

I can see Italian Nationalism be a factor, but it would take an existential threat to the Italian states to cause something like this...or a Napoleon.

As for a surviving Venice, Napoleon signalled the final death knell of the Republic of San Marco, and no reforms could ever hope to save the Republic. Though what if Venice sided with France, at least initially. Could it hope to survive as a friend and ally of France for a time?

Nationalism was weak yes, but I can't see it remainig subdued for ever, though a later nationalist awakening is certainly a possibility.

As for reforms, the Republic had effectively ossified, with the Great Families effectively blocking off the routes to power that had been possibile before for wealthy enough commoners. The Oligarchical system meant that power was vested in far to large a group of people for one person to easily overturn centuries of tradition in order to enact needed reforms.

As for being an ally of republican France, it might last for a while, but the public are only going to get encouragement for a revolution of their own if it does.
 
Nationalism was weak yes, but I can't see it remainig subdued for ever, though a later nationalist awakening is certainly a possibility.

As for reforms, the Republic had effectively ossified, with the Great Families effectively blocking off the routes to power that had been possibile before for wealthy enough commoners. The Oligarchical system meant that power was vested in far to large a group of people for one person to easily overturn centuries of tradition in order to enact needed reforms.

As for being an ally of republican France, it might last for a while, but the public are only going to get encouragement for a revolution of their own if it does.


I think everything here depends on what happens in the 1790s. Do we see no French revolution/ the Revolution being put down? Or do we see a less militant Republican France? Or do we see a France who'd beaten in the War of the First Coalition? Truthfully a lot depends on which way France go.
 
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