AHC: Vandalic Kingdom that lasts to the late 1800's

The challenge is to have the Vandalic Kingdom in Africa last until at least late the late 1800's, it can last longer or up until modern day.
 
How do they avoid their fall into impotence in the 5th to 6th Century? How do they repulse/defeat the expanionist Muslims of the 7th Century?

I think geographically a kingdom encompassing the northwest African coastline, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearics (at least, if not also a chunk of southern Iberia) would be great!

Go, VANDALS!!!!!!!!
 
How do they avoid their fall into impotence in the 5th to 6th Century? How do they repulse/defeat the expanionist Muslims of the 7th Century?

I think geographically a kingdom encompassing the northwest African coastline, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearics (at least, if not also a chunk of southern Iberia) would be great!

Go, VANDALS!!!!!!!!

Im not sure, its why I put the challenge bit. But what I am thinking is, a good start at least, would to have the Arian Vandals respect the Trinitarians right to worship, instead of persecuting them like in OTL.
 
Vandalic problems at home seem to have been colossally exaggerated; only one source makes a big deal about them, namely the (Trinitarian, Chalkedonian) churchman Victor of Vita. Who is hardly an unbiased observer.

That said, I doubt that the Vandals could survive in a meaningful sense - perhaps the name could stick, I suppose. But they were a very weak polity, in military terms, even after having had three-quarters of a century to consolidate their position. Their survival would rely on the whim of other states for quite some time.

One potential way is to prevent the Anastasian fiscal reforms in the Byzantine state, making it impossible to amass funds or soldiers for a Vandalic conquest, plague or no plague. Then it would be hard pressed enough by the Sasanians to be unable to do much of anything in the west. The Gothic state in Italy of course had its own problems around that time. I imagine an altered Sasano-Byzantine struggle would butterfly away Islam, although it's not as though you can predict the genesis of religions; it would certainly however be child's play to keep Egypt under Byzantine control in such circumstances.

But beyond that, it's honestly a total crapshoot.
 
So, . . . Byzantines kill Islam in its cradle, while Vandals get themselves a bit more centralized in their "homelands", is that it?

Can we have Italy stay Osthrogothic and Iberia stay Visigothic as well???

[Jumping up-and-down and clapping my hands!!!!!!]
 
Religion: I think the Italian example shows that conflict was avoidable. And the Vandals probably had a better position than the Ostrogoths, since the Donatists and Catholics had been opposing each other.

Politics: Gaiseric's successors just weren't as competent as he. And I tend to think that the intrusive groups tended to thin out, and become less migration-like and more army-like, in repeated movements. So the Moesian Goths [both the 348 group and 376 group] can be considered refugee flows, while the Visigoths, by the time the reached Gaul, and the Vandals, by the time they reached Spain, or at the latest by the time they reached Carthage, can be considered elite transfer. A warrior aristocracy either gets absorbed into the country it has conquered [as the Norman aristocracy became English] or it gets destroyed first [as the Vandal aristocracy did]. A warrior aristocracy can't put as many troops in the field, either.
 
Religion: I think the Italian example shows that conflict was avoidable. And the Vandals probably had a better position than the Ostrogoths, since the Donatists and Catholics had been opposing each other.

Politics: Gaiseric's successors just weren't as competent as he. And I tend to think that the intrusive groups tended to thin out, and become less migration-like and more army-like, in repeated movements. So the Moesian Goths [both the 348 group and 376 group] can be considered refugee flows, while the Visigoths, by the time the reached Gaul, and the Vandals, by the time they reached Spain, or at the latest by the time they reached Carthage, can be considered elite transfer. A warrior aristocracy either gets absorbed into the country it has conquered [as the Norman aristocracy became English] or it gets destroyed first [as the Vandal aristocracy did]. A warrior aristocracy can't put as many troops in the field, either.
But couldn't the Vandal Aristocracy have survived while assimilating the masses with the rest of their population?
 
But couldn't the Vandal Aristocracy have survived while assimilating the masses with the rest of their population?

An aristocracy tends to try to keep new people from joining it. A larger group is more likely to assimilate people, and if it includes all social classes, it is less likely to try to keep people from joining the lower ones.

And I'm not sure, but if more Romans and Mauri are involved in the conquest of Carthage, perhaps that would change things.
 
Politics: Gaiseric's successors just weren't as competent as he. And I tend to think that the intrusive groups tended to thin out, and become less migration-like and more army-like, in repeated movements. So the Moesian Goths [both the 348 group and 376 group] can be considered refugee flows, while the Visigoths, by the time the reached Gaul, and the Vandals, by the time they reached Spain, or at the latest by the time they reached Carthage, can be considered elite transfer. A warrior aristocracy either gets absorbed into the country it has conquered [as the Norman aristocracy became English] or it gets destroyed first [as the Vandal aristocracy did]. A warrior aristocracy can't put as many troops in the field, either.
Feh. Then we get into the issue of whether the so-called Migration Period actually featured meaningful migratory activity and to what extent the 'Goths', 'Vandals', and whatnot were in fact cohesive alien bodies...
 
The challenge is to have the Vandalic Kingdom in Africa last until at least late the late 1800's, it can last longer or up until modern day.

They could flee south and find their way to the Mount Tahat region. There they could set up a mountain kingdom safe from all but the most determined attack.
 
Well, like others said, it's really a matter of preventing Justinian from invading Vandalia. This would likely prevent Arabic invasions into the region, but that isn't to say the religion of Islam (if it even pops up) would not spread into the region.

Vandalia would be a very prosperous, being the bread basket of the mediterranean sea. The Vandalians (as I presume they would be called, or something similar) would need to expand their navy in order to keep their island possessions from falling into Gothic hands. Berber raids would be an issue, so they would also need to keep a somewhat competent army around.

In other words, a military that is actually worth two shits is necessary for Vandalian survival.

I'd imagine the language would become a Romance language, similar probably to Mozarabic with all the Berber influence that would surely happen. There would be Germanic loanwords, like there is in French, but the core would be a Latin-based language.
 
Well, like others said, it's really a matter of preventing Justinian from invading Vandalia. This would likely prevent Arabic invasions into the region, but that isn't to say the religion of Islam (if it even pops up) would not spread into the region.

Vandalia would be a very prosperous, being the bread basket of the mediterranean sea. The Vandalians (as I presume they would be called, or something similar) would need to expand their navy in order to keep their island possessions from falling into Gothic hands. Berber raids would be an issue, so they would also need to keep a somewhat competent army around.

In other words, a military that is actually worth two shits is necessary for Vandalian survival.

I'd imagine the language would become a Romance language, similar probably to Mozarabic with all the Berber influence that would surely happen. There would be Germanic loanwords, like there is in French, but the core would be a Latin-based language.
That sounds pretty good, but I am not completely set on having Vandalia keep Sardinia and Corsica, more just keeping them in North Africa, specifically around Carthage. Also it would be very cool if they survived with an Arian aristocracy. Which may cause trouble if they have a Crusade ITTL.
 
Instead of trying to invade the Peloponnese in the 460's, they could occupy a few islands in the Aegean and from there attack the grain shipments coming out from Egypt to the rest of the eastern Roman Empire. They could open their ranks to Arians from Gaul, Spain, Italy and the eastern Empire.
 
This topic has really perked my interest, so I've decided to make a TL on the matter. Hope no one objects.
 
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