AHC: Utah-like Jewish state in western USA

Would it have been possible for Jews to have created a state in the western United States, possibly called Israel, in a similar way to how in OTL the Mormons created Utah? I was thinking it would be possible if there was a wave of anti-semitism in Europe in the early 19th century, causing considerably larger numbers of Jews to emigrate to the US than did during the same period in OTL. Then with so many Jewish immigrants, the US becomes much more anti-semetic, and they suffer often violent attacks wherever they try and settle down. Could pioneering Jews lead their people into the west and found a "New Jerusalem" in the Western US away from persecution? Would such a scenario recquire Joseph Smith and Mormonism to be handwaved, or is there room for both a state of Utah and a state of Israel in the Western USA?

If by 1900, there was a state within the US that was majority Jewish, would this state be able to take in the majority of the European Jewish population (even though the Holocaust is likely to be butterflied with a PoD so far back, some kind of continuing persecution is likely)? Would the federal government be more or less tolerant towards a Jewish dominated state in the US than they were towards LDS-dominated Utah? Utah wasn't allowed to become a state until the Mormons banned polygamy and since there is no equivalent issue in Judaism, perhaps they would achieve statehood quicker, especially as if most American Jews were concentrated far away in the West, anti-semitism would die down in the rest of the US?

Would they have allowed millions of Jews from Europe to come and settle in this one state? Or would a state with the resources capable of holding such a large population be untolerably large and powerful from the point of view of Christian Americans - as it would have to be much bigger than OTL's Utah?
 
Would it have been possible for Jews to have created a state in the western United States, possibly called Israel, in a similar way to how in OTL the Mormons created Utah? I was thinking it would be possible if there was a wave of anti-semitism in Europe in the early 19th century, causing considerably larger numbers of Jews to emigrate to the US than did during the same period in OTL. Then with so many Jewish immigrants, the US becomes much more anti-semetic, and they suffer often violent attacks wherever they try and settle down. Could pioneering Jews lead their people into the west and found a "New Jerusalem" in the Western US away from persecution? Would such a scenario recquire Joseph Smith and Mormonism to be handwaved, or is there room for both a state of Utah and a state of Israel in the Western USA?

If by 1900, there was a state within the US that was majority Jewish, would this state be able to take in the majority of the European Jewish population (even though the Holocaust is likely to be butterflied with a PoD so far back, some kind of continuing persecution is likely)? Would the federal government be more or less tolerant towards a Jewish dominated state in the US than they were towards LDS-dominated Utah? Utah wasn't allowed to become a state until the Mormons banned polygamy and since there is no equivalent issue in Judaism, perhaps they would achieve statehood quicker, especially as if most American Jews were concentrated far away in the West, anti-semitism would die down in the rest of the US?

Would they have allowed millions of Jews from Europe to come and settle in this one state? Or would a state with the resources capable of holding such a large population be untolerably large and powerful from the point of view of Christian Americans - as it would have to be much bigger than OTL's Utah?


This would end up with, possibly, a significant number of Jews coming but many would still stay - many Jews in Western Europe felt an integral part of the society and were pretty well assimilated - an again, in the absence of a coherent Nazi ideology, "old" antisemitic stereotypes would not possibly cause such an exodus.
 
You might see Yiddish used extensively in the area, possibly a mixture of Yiddish and English after, say, 50-80 years - let`s call it "Yiddlish"
 
Would it have been possible for Jews to have created a state in the western United States, possibly called Israel, in a similar way to how in OTL the Mormons created Utah? I was thinking it would be possible if there was a wave of anti-semitism in Europe in the early 19th century, causing considerably larger numbers of Jews to emigrate to the US than did during the same period in OTL. Then with so many Jewish immigrants, the US becomes much more anti-semetic, and they suffer often violent attacks wherever they try and settle down. Could pioneering Jews lead their people into the west and found a "New Jerusalem" in the Western US away from persecution? Would such a scenario recquire Joseph Smith and Mormonism to be handwaved, or is there room for both a state of Utah and a state of Israel in the Western USA?

If by 1900, there was a state within the US that was majority Jewish, would this state be able to take in the majority of the European Jewish population (even though the Holocaust is likely to be butterflied with a PoD so far back, some kind of continuing persecution is likely)? Would the federal government be more or less tolerant towards a Jewish dominated state in the US than they were towards LDS-dominated Utah? Utah wasn't allowed to become a state until the Mormons banned polygamy and since there is no equivalent issue in Judaism, perhaps they would achieve statehood quicker, especially as if most American Jews were concentrated far away in the West, anti-semitism would die down in the rest of the US?

Would they have allowed millions of Jews from Europe to come and settle in this one state? Or would a state with the resources capable of holding such a large population be untolerably large and powerful from the point of view of Christian Americans - as it would have to be much bigger than OTL's Utah?

Check out the Jewish "Utah", called Wasatch in my CoHE TL: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2027252&postcount=328
 
Would it have been possible for Jews to have created a state in the western United States, possibly called Israel, in a similar way to how in OTL the Mormons created Utah?

No. Utah happened only because the Mormons were a tightly organized community under a strong and bold leader, who chose to move west at just the right time, finding a suitable spot that was completely empty.

Also, the Mormons were a typical cross-section of Americans, and were mostly farmers. Thus they could build a complete sustainable community. They also had nowhere else to go, and recruited immigrants from Europe.

Jews were mostly urban, and not interested in settling in a howling wilderness, nor organized as a group.

Remote possibility: some Hasidic Chief Rabbi, in response to a pogrom around 1860-1870, has a vision, and decides his mostly rural community should migrate en masse to... Washington Territory?

This would be difficult for more than 10,000 migrants, because it would have to be overland on wagons or by sea around South America. After 1883, the Northern Pacific was completed, and migration could be by rail.

Again - if the timing was just right - some rabbi leads a migration that starts just after the NP is opened, and is followed by others... But there was going to be a lot of other migration there - Washington had about 400K inhabitants at statehood which was 1889 or 1890.
 
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I agree having one Hasidic bigwig organize it would be the easiest way, if they did a bit of recruitment and had a sky high birthrate that might swing it if it starts early enough.
 
This would end up with, possibly, a significant number of Jews coming but many would still stay - many Jews in Western Europe felt an integral part of the society and were pretty well assimilated - an again, in the absence of a coherent Nazi ideology, "old" antisemitic stereotypes would not possibly cause such an exodus.
Whats the difference between "old" antisemitic stereotypes and Nazi antisemitic stereotypes?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Whats the difference between "old" antisemitic stereotypes and Nazi antisemitic stereotypes?

Beside things like Jews being full members of society under imperial Germany and the Nazi wanting to kill them all?

Besides German state treating Jews the best of major European powers pre-WW1 to the Holocaust a generation later?

The major that gave Hitler one of his Iron Crosses was Jewish.
 
Whats the difference between "old" antisemitic stereotypes and Nazi antisemitic stereotypes?

Old - greedy. dangerous action to be taken - isolate, assimilate or banish

New - that Jews are inherently evil and cause every possible social plague

Action to be taken - exterminate.
 

ingemann

Banned
The problem was that most Jews knew little about farming at this point, as they were traditional forbidden to own land in Europe. There was some exception like the Jewish agricultural colonies in Russia set up by the Tsar. In fact I personal think it more likely that some of these colonies migrate (involuntary) to Sibiria and end up a majority in some province there, and no I'm not talking about the autonome Oblast in the Far East, some place on the border between Kazahkstan and Russiais more likely to end up with a Jewish majority. Another alternative would be be the coast between Odessa and the Danube which was thinly populated, has rich soil and was already home to several such colonies in real history, we could see the Tsar force other Jewish colonies into the area, relative few Jews would be needed to reach majority there.
 
The problem was that most Jews knew little about farming at this point, as they were traditional forbidden to own land in Europe. There was some exception like the Jewish agricultural colonies in Russia set up by the Tsar. In fact I personal think it more likely that some of these colonies migrate (involuntary) to Sibiria and end up a majority in some province there, and no I'm not talking about the autonome Oblast in the Far East, some place on the border between Kazahkstan and Russiais more likely to end up with a Jewish majority. Another alternative would be be the coast between Odessa and the Danube which was thinly populated, has rich soil and was already home to several such colonies in real history, we could see the Tsar force other Jewish colonies into the area, relative few Jews would be needed to reach majority there.

This seems about right.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Whats the difference between "old" antisemitic stereotypes and Nazi antisemitic stereotypes?
The Nazis weren't about to accuse the Jews of being "Christ Killers".

Christ was a good Jewish boy you see...;)

The Nazi elitists, particularly the wackos like Himmler were into that "good old religion" of pagan Norse Gods.
 

d32123

Banned
The Nazis weren't about to accuse the Jews of being "Christ Killers".

Christ was a good Jewish boy you see...;)

The Nazi elitists, particularly the wackos like Himmler were into that "good old religion" of pagan Norse Gods.

The vast majority of Nazis were still Christian, though.
 
No. Utah happened only because the Mormons were a tightly organized community under a strong and bold leader, who chose to move west at just the right time, finding a suitable spot that was completely empty.

Also, the Mormons were a typical cross-section of Americans, and were mostly farmers. Thus they could build a complete sustainable community. They also had nowhere else to go, and recruited immigrants from Europe.

Jews were mostly urban, and not interested in settling in a howling wilderness, nor organized as a group.

Remote possibility: some Hasidic Chief Rabbi, in response to a pogrom around 1860-1870, has a vision, and decides his mostly rural community should migrate en masse to... Washington Territory?

This would be difficult for more than 10,000 migrants, because it would have to be overland on wagons or by sea around South America. After 1883, the Northern Pacific was completed, and migration could be by rail.

Again - if the timing was just right - some rabbi leads a migration that starts just after the NP is opened, and is followed by others... But there was going to be a lot of other migration there - Washington had about 400K inhabitants at statehood which was 1889 or 1890.
That was kind of Zionism's whole MO, to be honest. Educated urban Jews packed up their shit and settled in rural palestine and started farming, especially if they were Labor Zionists.
 
The vast majority of Nazis were still Christian, though.

Christianity had been a declining force in Germany for years, while those who remained them generally having issues with the murder, racism, paganism, or such that was being done mostly against Christians.
 
That was kind of Zionism's whole MO, to be honest. Educated urban Jews packed up their shit and settled in rural palestine and started farming, especially if they were Labor Zionists.

And how many recruits did they get? Damn few, despite the powerful emotional appeal of resettling the Jewish homeland, which was a lot nearer to Europe than the American West.

The Zionists didn't even start their project till 1900 or so, and it wasn't until the 1920s that the numbers became significant.

To meet the requirement of the challenge, Jews must be the majority in a US state, as Mormons are in Utah. That requires large-scale migration and settlement no later than the 1880s.
 
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