AHC: US territory extends into South America

With a point of departure no earlier that September 17, 1787 have the US gradually annex all of Mexico, Central America and Gran Colombia by the end of the 20th century with the vast majority of the people in those areas being at least content with the idea of being US citizens. Also all OTL US territory must be part of this Alternate US too.

Bonus points for working The Caribbean into it as well.
 
Been reading Decades of Darkness?

I think this has been suggested previously, many times and most of the time it seems way beyond unlikely. At least, that is the reactions i have got.
 
Ameriwank Empire would struggle to get through Mexico. Think about it, the white conservative class of Americans during this time weren't exactly racially progressive. Why the hell would they want to annex a huge number of brown people into their nation? Populating the new Hispanic states and territories with whites would take a huge amount of time.

America may be able to turn the Americas into an economic colony of sorts, by generating an all-out monopoly on Latin American trade, but no matter the POD the British are going to be rather peeved at this during the 19th Century. Perhaps during the Cold War the States are in a far more invasive position when it comes to anti-communism and so they dominate Latin American before the Soviets can. I can see them reaching as far south as Venezuela.

Decades of Darkness is what you might call one of the 'classics' of this site. In the early days of AH when plausibility wasn't so hardcore, DoD was a great timeline, and now it still is because it has so much history.
 
I think the real thing here is that any realistic state encompassing ALL of that would really have long since stopped being 'America' in the sense that you're talking about.
 
Ameriwank Empire would struggle to get through Mexico. Think about it, the white conservative class of Americans during this time weren't exactly racially progressive. Why the hell would they want to annex a huge number of brown people into their nation? Populating the new Hispanic states and territories with whites would take a huge amount of time.

This is the point - together with catholicism.

Now for catholicism to be far more accepted in the US you could find PODs were more Catholics emmigrate to the Americas and Quebec becomes part of the US.

The racism-issue is much harder. You'd need to diminish slavery substantially in the US, but still keep a significant number of non-Whites, which also must be well integrated.

Having the kids of slaves always born free, a different policy considering the natives leading to well integrated native American nations, having sizeable non-White minorities already in the old world, religious dogma preaching racial equality and promoting it - such things would be needed. Obviously, this is hard to do realistically.
 
Having some territory in South America wouldn't be that hard. French Guiana, perhaps, after either a purchase or a war where France and America ended up on opposite sides would do it, or maybe American territory around OTL Punta Arenas. Having contiguous territory of happy Americans (or Americanos) is a much taller order.
 

Eurofed

Banned
USAO has a USA that includes all of the Americas, but the PoD is in 1774. It sees Quebec and the Iroquois join the American Revolution. This causes the American culture in its formative stage to develop a much more inclusive and tolerant view of Catholics, Romance-speakers, and 'civilized' Native Americans, and Canada to willingly join the USA.

Political butterflies (long Federalist hegemony) make the USA much, much better prepared for the War of 1812, where in addition to kicking Redcoat butt in Rupert's Land and the Caribbean (also thanks to events in Europe), the Americans intervene in the Spanish-American wars of independence to support the Patriots. This makes Bolivar and co. become pro-US revolutionaries and Manifest Destiny take a Pan-American character, so Gran Colombia, Cuba, and Peru willingly join the USA. Mexico is later annexed by means similar to OTL.

Having been expelled from North America, Britain conquers the Southern Cone during the Napoleonic Wars and develops a lasting rivalry with the USA. It intervenes during the ACW to support the CSA with France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, and the Ottomans, but Greater Germany, Italy, Hungary (all formed in the early 1830s), and Russia intervene to support the Union. In the resulting world war, the Union and its *CP allies win, causing the USA to remain united and annex most of British South America and all the Caribbean, leaving only Brazil and UK Araucania-Patagonia outside the USA in the Americas.

The expanded ACW makes the Union embrace Radical Reconstruction, with various reforms that destroy Dixie racial segregation and the peonage system in Hispanic states, ending racism and cementing democratic national unity.

A generation later, Brazil (that has gone neo-Confederate) experiences an anti-slavery insurrection. The USA intervenes to help the abolitionists and annexes Brazil. The Americas are willingly united under US democracy, except UK Araucania-Patagonia, but that score (and the fate of the British Empire itself) is being settled in the second world war, which shall see the USA conquer the British Dominions, among other events.
 
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One thing I will note on Mexico is that while yes, one of the main reasons that their was opposition to the 'All Mexico' idea was race, it is somewhat overblow in the modern day.

In 1850 the United States had a population of 23.2 million whereas Mexico had a population of 7.5 million.

Now at the time about 80% of America's population was white, and even if we assume that only 10% of Mexico was 'pure' white at the time we still end-up with a United States that's majority white.

More specifically their'd be 63% 'pure' white, 22% Mixed race/half-white (whom are actually majority European genetically) and 15% Black.
 
With a point of departure no earlier that September 17, 1787 have the US gradually annex all of Mexico, Central America and Gran Colombia by the end of the 20th century with the vast majority of the people in those areas being at least content with the idea of being US citizens. Also all OTL US territory must be part of this Alternate US too.

Bonus points for working The Caribbean into it as well.

Well, first off, eliminating a good bit of the societal racism would certainly be helpful, I would think....other than that, the only other answer I have is.....Filibusters. And lots of 'em. :D
 
Been reading Decades of Darkness?

I think this has been suggested previously, many times and most of the time it seems way beyond unlikely. At least, that is the reactions i have got.

Decades of Darkness was an interesting novelty at first, but.......it could have been better done, too. (At least let's hope it doesn't become just another Draka).
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I think the real thing here is that any realistic state encompassing ALL of that would really have long since stopped being 'America' in the sense that you're talking about.

Agreed.

Not only would the USA be a "brown" nation like Brazil, the USA would also be majority Catholic. So imagine people talking about how a protestant could not be elected President in the 1900-1970 time frame. Even if the USA manages to make the new lands speak English, the Catholic and cultural difference will largely remain. A lot of the reason New Orleans is different is that was founded Catholic and has remained Catholic. A city like New Orleans in your ATL would be viewed as closer to a protestant city than a "true" catholic city.

This is the point - together with catholicism.

Now for catholicism to be far more accepted in the US you could find PODs were more Catholics emmigrate to the Americas and Quebec becomes part of the US.

The racism-issue is much harder. You'd need to diminish slavery substantially in the US, but still keep a significant number of non-Whites, which also must be well integrated.

Having the kids of slaves always born free, a different policy considering the natives leading to well integrated native American nations, having sizeable non-White minorities already in the old world, religious dogma preaching racial equality and promoting it - such things would be needed. Obviously, this is hard to do realistically.

Agreed.

At a minimum, you need a way for the slavery issue to be handled that does not create a war, but never threatens to create a war. And a mechanism to speed acceptance of non WASP's. The federalism/states rights in the USA constitution can easily handle these issues IF, AND ONLY IF, the POD somehow starts to change the attitude of individual Americans.

You will also get some butterflies quickly such as a USA that is more tolerant might well have some German speaking states. French might still be the language of commerce in Louisiana. Would such a state country the Cherokee? Cherokee could easily be the language of a state with laws based on Cherokee traditions. etc.
 
Decades of Darkness was an interesting novelty at first, but.......it could have been better done, too. (At least let's hope it doesn't become just another Draka).

I still think DoD is one of the best timelines on this site. Its extrapolated a lot but it is perfectly plausible to think that a USA shorn of New England and New York would be A) powerful enough and B) have a political culture that would want to, conquer large sections of South America.

On the other hand, DoD also shows just how difficult conquering South America would be for even the USA and how far back the PoD needs to be. It takes the Americans nearly thirty years to conquer all of Mexico and assimilate it; they only conquer Venezuela and Colombia so quickly because they get dragged into a major war; the same for Brazil, Chile and Peru. All the south, they face concerted resistance from first Britain and then the Armistad/Germany. The main reason they succeed is because a) the Royal Navy screws up big time and b) the South American nations lose their most powerful allies at crucial moments (Britain in 1906, Germany in the early 1930s). You can have the USA conquer parts of South America but it will take a very long to time to do it, and you probably need a different political culture to the OTL US to do it on a big scale.

teg
 
I still think DoD is one of the best timelines on this site. Its extrapolated a lot but it is perfectly plausible to think that a USA shorn of New England and New York would be A) powerful enough and B) have a political culture that would want to, conquer large sections of South America.

On the other hand, DoD also shows just how difficult conquering South America would be for even the USA and how far back the PoD needs to be. It takes the Americans nearly thirty years to conquer all of Mexico and assimilate it; they only conquer Venezuela and Colombia so quickly because they get dragged into a major war; the same for Brazil, Chile and Peru. All the south, they face concerted resistance from first Britain and then the Armistad/Germany. The main reason they succeed is because a) the Royal Navy screws up big time and b) the South American nations lose their most powerful allies at crucial moments (Britain in 1906, Germany in the early 1930s). You can have the USA conquer parts of South America but it will take a very long to time to do it, and you probably need a different political culture to the OTL US to do it on a big scale.

teg

And Jared never much bothered to cover the resistance which was surely going to pop up sooner or later, I might add.
The truth is, even taking the troubles with Venezuela + Colombia, as well as Peru + Charcas + Chile, into account, the U.S. largely got by with insane amounts of good luck; hardly anything went terribly wrong for it, outside of the War of 1833. It does remind me of an old review that Ian did of FWoAN, and his comments concerning Kramer Associates.
 
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