AHC; US ground forces suffer air attack.

The NVAF did go after ships: In 1972, two MiG-17s attacked the destroyer U.S.S. Higbee (the only ship in the Navy at the time named for a woman) and the guided missile cruiser U.S.S. Oklahoma City. The destroyer took a 550-pound bomb and was moderately damaged, while the cruiser was unharmed. The NVN claimed the destroyer as sunk and the cruiser damaged. Higbee was back on the gun line off NVN within a month (three weeks' repairs at Subic Bay).

In January, 1973, the last MiG kill of the war took place when a MiG-17 tried going after the carrier U.S.S. Midway on Yankee Station. An F-4 from VF-151 shot him down short of the carrier.

note that timing.. during Linebacker II (when the US was going all out against Hanoi and Haiphong). Timing is very important here. I recall the US Navy getting a few SAM kills with Terrier missiles from cruisers during the war as well.
 
Laos was a special case.. technically, neither the US or North Vietnam officially had anyone in country. Both of course did, but plausible deniability was maintained.

Attacking US bases or ships offshore with aircraft would put LBJ in the position where he would have to authorized direct strikes against PAVN bases.. something he did not do. It was more or less an 'understanding' similar to the one during Korea. The Reds would not attack US ships and airfields in Japan, and the US would not attack Red airfields in Manchuria and the Soviet Union. Part of the effort to keep the war as limited as possible.

Air strikes by the PAVN AF against US bases in South Vietnam would negate the fiction that the NLF was fighting with the help of PAVN volunteers against the puppet ARVN and their US allies. In other words, make it a conventional war.

Incidently, the US did maintain interceptor squadrons and HAWK batteries at its bases in South Vietnam... just in case.

Yep, from the perspective of the North Vietnamese launching air strikes against the South while the US is involved in the war doesn't make much sense.

The small amount of actual damage they could do and the extra political capital and propaganda advantages they would have gained would have been more than outweighed by the likely US counter attack that would have destroyed their Air Force and / or the US providing the South with their own high performance strike air craft capable of striking the North on their own (along with the needed pilot training, weapons etc.) If the US had built up the South Vietnamese Air Force to the point where they could launch their own strikes against the North then they might have done better against the North in 1975 as the loss of US air support would not have been as significant.

 
I'm really surprised that the sort of "air guerrilla" warfare that was carried out by the Tamil Tigers and Biafrians never became widespread during the many third world conflicts of the 20th century. In the days before AWACS and look down/shoot down radar, it seems like WW2 vintage attack aircraft or even civil liaison planes operating from rugged, dispersed air strips could have some harassment/psychological effect.

Obviously the proliferation of medium AA and MANPADS makes this increasingly difficult to carry out in any meaningful way against a modern opponent, so I don't think jungle-clearing operated Vietnamese IL-2's would have a chance to effect something like Khe Sanh, but in another insurgency environment with a reduced AAA threat- maybe somewhere in Africa- it would be interesting to see the idea of "COIN aircraft" turned on it's head.

EDIT: Really, just the idea of Angolan rebel Sturmoviks operating from bush strips against the Portuguese and later South Africans is just too damn cool to not think about.

IIRC, North Korea still had Shtrumoviks in service during the Korean Border Clashes of the late 60s/early 70s, so that's another possibility, though they'd probably get shot down.
 
indeed that battle was a conventional one.. but they attacked from Laos, not across the DMZ. The first time the NVA attacked across the DMZ was during the 1972 Easter Offensive, which was a full scale mechanized assault no less. By which point we had already pulled out except for advisors and air support. By the way, Khe Sanh did not fall into NVA hands until AFTER the US withdrew after its relief during Operation Pegasus and moved operations elsewhere. Although a few fire bases did fall, or were abandoned when the cost was determined not worth (Ripcord being one in 1970), the NVA did not overrun the 4 battalions of Marines stationed at Khe Sanh.

So what?

The NVA repeatedly invaded South Vietnam, seized territory and killed Americans in conventional battle. The US abandoned the McNamara Line and chose not to escalate despite massive provocation. Does anyone believe a little air guerrilla action is going to change the over all US war strategy?

"Call the President, they crossed the line this time."

Whatever reason the NVA did not employ this tactic, fear of escalating the war is not one of them.
 
So what?

The NVA repeatedly invaded South Vietnam, seized territory and killed Americans in conventional battle. The US abandoned the McNamara Line and chose not to escalate despite massive provocation. Does anyone believe a little air guerrilla action is going to change the over all US war strategy?

"Call the President, they crossed the line this time."

Whatever reason the NVA did not employ this tactic, fear of escalating the war is not one of them.

an air attack completely goes beyond the fiction that the Peoples Army is fighting a valiant battle against imperialist occupiers. Having some Sappers sneak in and blow up some aircraft or the occasional rocket slamming into the base from the jungle is one thing, an actual air attack with combat aircraft is another. If the NVA had used light aircraft, like Russian issued biplanes, that would fall under the category of a special operation or the like. Using Su-7s or Il28s on the other hand would have been pretty hard to ignore. Not that the PAVN had those aircraft in any kind of numbers in any event.

The main point is this, the PAVN did not have the capability to launch any kind of substantial air attack against US bases in South Vietnam as they lacked the aircraft to do so, they clearly did not want to do so as they didn't (indications I have read was due to desire by their sponsors to keep the US -- specifically LBJ-- from using the full force of American air power against the North), and the US did actually have squadrons of F106s and F4s (which are duel capable fighter-bombers) available, as well as SAM batteries (HAWKs) to deal with that threat should it develop, along with E121 AWACs aircraft and a dense ground radar network.

In other words, they couldn't, they didn't want to, and if they tried, they would probably have failed anyway with a conventional attack by military strike or bomber aircraft.
 

Das_Colonel

Banned
IIRC, North Korea still had Shtrumoviks in service during the Korean Border Clashes of the late 60s/early 70s, so that's another possibility, though they'd probably get shot down.

These were IL-10's which performed better than the original IL-2 from which it was developed.

I believe Iluyshin also created a mock up IL-2 styled jet ground attack aircraft in competition with the Su-25. I forget what it was called. Looked pretty darn mean though.
 
an air attack completely goes beyond the fiction that the Peoples Army is fighting a valiant battle against imperialist occupiers. Having some Sappers sneak in and blow up some aircraft or the occasional rocket slamming into the base from the jungle is one thing, an actual air attack with combat aircraft is another.

Why is that? Did the Tamil Tiger's use of light aircraft undermine their underdog image? Do you realize the siege of Khe Sanh was carried out by two divisions in South Vietnamese territory? Battalions of NVA were wiped out.

The purpose of guerrilla air raids is propaganda value. A plausible explanation is the Northern leadership believed they had more cost effective ways to gain that edge. It's likely this was just not their cup of tea. They weren't alone. Very few wars saw this sort of tactic used.
 
I think small scale air attacks could have been possible in Vietnam, perhaps in the confusion surrounding Tet. IIRC the North did have some attack aircraft, and if not with Soviet support could have readily acquired suitable aircraft. These would be more in the nature of sparodic sneak attacks covered by other operations. Perhaps when the NthV detect a large raid forming they could scramble a few fighter bombers to throw some heat onto the US while their tankers, AEW and comms were busy with an attack.

I also think that Iraq should have had a plan in place so that when the UN deadline was up it could swing into action. If Iraq put hundreds of aircraft into action in the first hours of the conflict I'd think some would get to their targets. If combined with anti AWACS attacks and ballistic missile attacks such air attacks could considerably reduce the aerial stranglehold the coalition had on Iraq for a while.
 
Why is that? Did the Tamil Tiger's use of light aircraft undermine their underdog image? Do you realize the siege of Khe Sanh was carried out by two divisions in South Vietnamese territory? Battalions of NVA were wiped out.

The purpose of guerrilla air raids is propaganda value. A plausible explanation is the Northern leadership believed they had more cost effective ways to gain that edge. It's likely this was just not their cup of tea. They weren't alone. Very few wars saw this sort of tactic used.

the Tamil were not fighting a proxy war during the Cold War, and my understanding is that at times up to 3 NVA divisions were at Khe Sanh. But we are wandering off the subject
 
The Iraqis did draw up strike plans: one was to go after the carriers in the Gulf with Su-22s and Mirages, another plan involved strikes on the Dhahran-Ras Tanura area (which the two Mirages the RSAF splashed were going for), another was for King Khalid Military City (Su-22s and Su-25s) and CAS with Su-22s and Su-25s. The IrAF, seeing how their interceptors were doing (poorly), kept their strike birds on the ground, with the exception of the Ras Tanura strike-and that almost had a different ending: had those Mirages not taken evasive action, they would've gotten a nose full of AIM-54, as two F-14s were going through their final prerelease checks with AWACS before shooting. Instead, they broke left, and the RSAF jumped them.
 
How many planes were in these strikes? It would have to be an all or nothing effort, squadrons of planes will get drilled, but wings and groups could stand a chance.
 
How many planes were in these strikes? It would have to be an all or nothing effort, squadrons of planes will get drilled, but wings and groups could stand a chance.

Did Iraq use such large groups of aircraft during the Iran-Iraq war?

Does Iraq have the necessary C3ISTAR for that?
 
The Iraqis flew a number of deep penetration strikes into Iran during that war, (see the book Iran-Iraq War in the Air) and the Iraqis had their share of talented pilots. The Mirage F-1, MiG-25, and MiG-29 units were those that CENTAF was most concerned about, as most of their pilots were combat veterans, some with Iranian kills, and would be expected to put up a fight.

For more info, try a google for the Iraqi Pespectives Project: The Mother of All Battles. A lot of previously unknown information about the Gulf War is available-and all of it comes from Iraqi archives captured in 2003.

The Iraqis didn't fly in Wing formation, or in large packages as the USAF did. Their strike packages were only about a dozen aircraft: 2-4 escorts, a pair of "Wild Weasels" (usually Su-22s with the AS-9 Kyle antiradar missile or F-1s with ARMAT), and the strike birds. Some strikes in pairs were MiG-25RBs, coming in at 65,000 feet or higher. CAS runs were in pairs or flights of four. And some strikes in the Iran-Iraq War were flown by Russian "advisors" to the Iraqis.
 
The Iraqis flew a number of deep penetration strikes into Iran during that war, (see the book Iran-Iraq War in the Air) and the Iraqis had their share of talented pilots. The Mirage F-1, MiG-25, and MiG-29 units were those that CENTAF was most concerned about, as most of their pilots were combat veterans, some with Iranian kills, and would be expected to put up a fight.

For more info, try a google for the Iraqi Pespectives Project: The Mother of All Battles. A lot of previously unknown information about the Gulf War is available-and all of it comes from Iraqi archives captured in 2003.

The Iraqis didn't fly in Wing formation, or in large packages as the USAF did. Their strike packages were only about a dozen aircraft: 2-4 escorts, a pair of "Wild Weasels" (usually Su-22s with the AS-9 Kyle antiradar missile or F-1s with ARMAT), and the strike birds. Some strikes in pairs were MiG-25RBs, coming in at 65,000 feet or higher. CAS runs were in pairs or flights of four. And some strikes in the Iran-Iraq War were flown by Russian "advisors" to the Iraqis.

Here's a link to a 452-page PDF from the IPP.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA484530&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
 
There's your PoD, seeing how pissed off the US got in the late 80s in the Gulf the Iraqis start flying in greater numbers and start coordinating attack flights with fighter flights. Wella, 3 years later they put up a bit oif a show against the coalition and some US troops get bombed before the IAF is destroyed. A USAF F15 pilot makes ace in the process.
 
At the time of the strikes against NV in retaliation for the Tonkin affair, I remember that the USAF deployed additional F-102s into the theater, anticipating that the North might retaliate using their Il-28s.

There was also the possibility of Cuban-based Il-28s being used during the Missile Crisis - ADC sent additonal aircraft south, and I well remember the pictures of HAWK batteries on Florida beaches. Weren't there also suggestions by Castro that he could hit Florida cities / nuke plants with MiGs - like in the 1980s?

I also recall that a couple(?) of Iraqi Badgers supposedly being loaded with chemical munitions were taken out by F-117s during DESERT STORM. The details on that are bit fuzzy, and I could well be mistaken.
 
Chris, the Badgers being loaded with CW has never been confirmed, but at the time, that's what CENTAF had, and the F-117s took them out in their revetments.

As for Cubans coming north, the Cuban AF's Chief of Operations defected in '86 (he flew a MiG-21 to NAS Key West IIRC), and when he was debriefed, the man revealed that Castro had the Cuban AF draw up air strike plans for South Florida-and the Turkey Creek Nuclear Power Plant was one of the targets on the list. Supposedly this was done after the Grenada Invasion, and Fidel thought he was next on Reagan's hit list. The Russians reportedly told Fidel that if he did this without provocation, the USSR would not support him, and that Soviet forces in Cuba would stand aside. (the Soviet Brigade in Cuba, the SIGINT facility, and the Soviet military advisors)
 
Top